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1 | June 07, 2023

Dr Damien Williams on Zero Kingston 2030

Dr. Damien Wiliams is a prize winning historian, writer, producer and community organiser. Dr Williams was educated at the University of Melbourne and graduated with a PhD in history in 2010.

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Dr Damien Williams on Zero Kingston 2030
[00:00:40 - 00:02:41] Ilana: I'm Ilana Rasbash and this is Radio Architecture. Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country. I'm so grateful to live work, play and broadcast live to you on Radio Carom from this very special part of the world. Welcome to the first ever show of Radio Architecture with Ilana Rasbash. Every week I'll be joined by a new guest to talk about public places and spaces, interesting buildings, their people and their stories. We'll discuss issues important to the Kingston community as well as those playing out at state and national level. As I embark upon this new adventure in radio, I'd love to read and share our listeners thoughts as well. You can text the Caram radio studio on 04-932-13831 whilst we're on air or write to me via Instagram radioarchitecture if you're catching out firepodcast. Thank you so much for joining me this evening. My name is Alana Rasbash. I'm a practicing architect and local Kingston resident. I'm passionate about public buildings and our civic life together. I'm really excited to introduce my first conversation partner, Dr. Damian Williams, a prize winning historian, writer, producer and community organizer. He was born on Bunurong country where he continues to live and work today. Dr. Williams was educated at the University of Melbourne and graduated with a PhD in history in 2010. His interest in walkability and designing streets for people was heightened after being diagnosed a few years ago with a functional neurological disorder and type 1 narcolepsy. These days he runs a woodworking school in Chelsea and is president of Zero Kingston 2030. Welcome Damien. Thank you for joining me.
[00:02:41 - 00:02:52] Damien: Thanks very much, Ilana. It's great to be here on your first show. I feel like I should have brought some champagne to Chris and this as the Champagne radio program and I'm really looking forward to the conversation.
[00:02:52 - 00:02:55] Ilana: Thank you so much. Like a ship on a voyage.
[00:02:55 - 00:02:56] Damien: Yes, very much.
[00:02:56 - 00:03:04] Ilana: Well, I have a first question that I want to ask all my guests. So you're first up. What's your earliest memory of a building or a place?
[00:03:06 - 00:04:04] Damien: It would be the home that we lived in. When my family were in the Western District we lived in Hamilton, which was a major centre there in the west of Victoria. And my dad was a manager with Telstra or Telecom Australia as it was when it was still a wholly owned government entity. And we drove around in a Commonwealth car with a red Z on the number plate, which I don't think they have anymore. And I had two sisters born there when we lived there in the 80s. And the house that I probably have my first memories of was, I think, the first house that Mum and Dad actually had a mortgage on. They'd lived in several rentals and we'd moved around a lot in that area before they settled on this particular place. And I guess it was either very early 20th century or late 19th century place with a bullnose veranda. And I think it had a corrugated tin roof.
[00:04:06 - 00:04:07] Ilana: Do you remember the colour?
[00:04:07 - 00:04:41] Damien: I do, actually, because my dad, who's someone who'd grown up on the farm and was very much used to doing everything himself and prided himself on that, undertook the task of stripping the bullnose veranda back and replacing the paint with the heritage stripes, so they were cream and red. And I remember him saying to me, or saying to some people I was in the presence of sometime after that, that if you didn't know how to swear beforehand, you would certainly know how to swear after restoring a bullnose veranda.
[00:04:42 - 00:04:49] Ilana: What a project. And that probably started your interest perhaps in so many different fields.
[00:04:49 - 00:05:50] Damien: Yeah, I mean, he was someone who had done quite well academically, but I think growing up in. In rural Victoria at the time, when he and his twin brother, who was also is very academically talented, they just didn't have the same sort of opportunities that certainly kids in the city would have had. And also I think that they. They both. They both trained as engineers, one in mechanical, the other in civil. And so even though dad ended up sort of going down that sort of managerial, corporate route, both of them, I think, were happiest, say, under the hood of a car or, you know, pulling something apart and putting it back together again, whether it was a house or an engine or, you know, anything of that type. And when you, I guess, are growing up in a family like that, there's a sort of, I would say, involuntary apprenticeship that you, you know, dragged into by virtue of being the assistant and.
[00:05:50 - 00:05:54] Ilana: Probably an attention and a care to where you are, to the land that you're on.
[00:05:54 - 00:08:07] Damien: Yeah, and that certainly came through from my mum. I mean, the Hamilton Art Gallery, for example, has actually got a really wonderful collection. I mean, in the 19th century, there were some directors of that gallery who were quite renowned antiquarians and so they were really into, you know, collecting stories and also objects from indigenous people in that Area that's. That's Gunditjmara country there. But it's. It's not far from Djaburong country, which is sort of to the north around the Grampians. And then there's other groups and clans which traditionally would, you know, congregate in areas such as Lake Bolak, where there's a. Where there's an eel festival today. And it's a kind of confluence of various different nations. And today, you know, you might be aware, there's the World Heritage Site to the south of there at Budjpim, which is where the Mount Eccles, as the Europeans called it, or Budj Bim. The volcano erupted several thousand years ago. It cut off the creek, it formed this lake network, and then mobbed there about. It's been dated to at least 7,000 years ago. Started engineering the channels, using the volcanic rocks and also building stone houses. And if you do the walk out there at Budjboom today, where I used to take students when I was teaching at Monash, you can see the round shapes of the bases of those houses. And they're quite nifty because although they're small, they're very, very strong. So when Europeans first came through on horseback, they could famously put a horse on top of the structure and it would still stay up. But what's interesting is where the prevailing winds come through from the southwest and obviously quite cold in that part of the world. The entrances to the buildings all faced the northeast, so you could still have a fire in there. You could still have animals and people and stuff congregating, but there was that level of protection. And I think. I mean, it's interesting going back to those sorts of places as an adult and. And looking at them afresh, seeing the.
[00:08:07 - 00:08:11] Ilana: Ancient wisdom, the ancient sustainability by default.
[00:08:11 - 00:08:57] Damien: Yeah, very much so. But I think also it repositions the history of vernacular housing in this country. It takes it back much, much further than perhaps just thinking about a sort of a zero point between, you know, indigenous history to a point and then European history beginning. And it provides us with a sense of continuity, I think. And maybe this would be something we could look at in conversation later, but maybe a basis for a more vernacular type of architecture that's more strongly rooted in the country that we're actually living on in combination with some of those ideas that if they come from elsewhere.
[00:08:58 - 00:09:36] Ilana: Definitely just for our listeners, vernacular really means something that's representative and shows off where you are as being true to place. And there's a very interesting kind of belief theory position that true sustainability, more than just solar panels and at least tech things that we need to get right anyway. But more than that is feeling connected to where you are and having a connection to place so that you care about it and you love it. And I feel that you really love Kingston. You're incredibly passionate about this community. So I'm interested. How did Zero Kingston 2030 start up?
[00:09:38 - 00:14:24] Damien: It really started towards the end of 2019 when I had been in Ireland, actually, and I'd been traveling around the island of Ireland. It was about August, September. I'd been in Galway on a day of. It was one of the worldwide school strikes, and there were a whole bunch of kids and local people there. And we got talking to some of the people who'd assembled who were from the labor movement, and they were just appalled, I think would be the best way to describe it, about the news reports that they'd seen coming out of northern New South Wales and southeast Queensland about the fires that were taking place. And I remember one turning to me and saying, isn't this the end of your winter? And I think it was the way that that person posed the question that made it suddenly seem a whole lot less familiar to me, because there's a sense, I think, living in Australia today, in which the. These growing sorts of extreme events are kind of becoming the background static to our lives, particularly those of us who live in urban areas. And they had, I think, been receiving probably a greater volume and possibly better reports of what was happening than Australians were in their own media. And so on returning to Australia, I started to look into, you know, just what were the current sort of plans that we had locally for this sort of stuff. And it was clear that there were elements that needed updating. And so over that summer began to sort of agitate a bit more with local councillors and others about, you know, what was the plan? What were you doing? And then basically just, you know, with the help of friends and others who we knew in the area, we. We started to gain more traction as that summer became much more of a. Of a horror show, really. That was what shifted the politics. I think before Christmas that year, there was sort of a view that, oh, well, look, the settings we've got were pretty right. This is probably only concerning a niche group of people. And then, if you recall the scenes on the beach at Mallacoota and those sorts of places, that was that summer. In hindsight, also, what makes it even more extraordinary is that it was really only about six or seven weeks after the Mallacoota incident. That Covid arrived on our shores. And it's interesting, I think would be one way to put it, to consider what would have happened if there had been overlap. I mean, in that sense, I think a national leader like Scott Morrison was a very lucky man in not having to try and deal with a situation like that. But, you know, famously he had been approached by emergency leaders from New South Wales three times, you know, over that preceding year, saying, listen, Prime Minister, you know, there's a need to upgrade the aircraft fleet, we need to do this, we need to do that. And they were rebuffed every time. So once those stories of those people's experiences started to come out, I think there was a greater urgency locally. And yeah, I mean, it was a. It was an extraordinary effort really, from a lot of people to, to petition council to. To do what it did. Interesting though, what was the petition? It was to declare a climate emergency. Yeah. So that had started at what was Moreland now, Merribeck Council, and then other councils in Melbourne started to do it. And when you looked at what had been done around the Bay, Bayside Council had done it in late 2019. And then I think what also sort of spurred things along was that Dandenong was preparing to announce on the Same Night in January 2020. And so what I've come to appreciate is that councils are in some ways quite risk averse, but at the same time, no one wants to be left behind. So you don't want to be seen to be the last ones to move, nor do you necessarily want to be seen to be the first ones to move. So when your neighbour starts to move and everybody else start to move, then you join in. And that's indeed what happened. And with a bit of work afterwards during that consultation process, we got a really good plan put together and to their credit, they have invested in staff to see this plan through. And so it includes a net zero target for council itself by 2025 and then for the community by 2030.
[00:14:26 - 00:14:31] Ilana: Fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Really leading the way in local governments.
[00:14:31 - 00:14:42] Damien: Yeah, they are now. Yeah, yeah. And that was part of the sell. You know, we said to them, look, you should be developing something that other communities which are similar can take off the shelf and say, we want to adopt this as the Kingston model.
[00:14:42 - 00:14:49] Ilana: And how is your committee going now? How's your group going now? After a very difficult few years for any organization, really.
[00:14:49 - 00:15:47] Damien: Yeah, Look, I think the impression I get from talking to other people who do this kind of work is that is that Covid really stripped out people's personnel and their energy and anybody in a voluntary organization of whatever shape or form that was able to do those two first years of the pandemic where, you know, sitting through those boring zoom meetings and having those issues with disconnection and isolation and all those sorts of things. Plus, I'm sure, you know, for larger organisations there were financial considerations around just not getting people through the gate anymore. We're all live questions. And I've said to people several times, you know, at our meetings and other meetups and things that we shouldn't forget to give ourselves credit for just surviving, I think. So I try not to put too much pressure on myself for, you know, things that are late, delayed, you know.
[00:15:48 - 00:15:54] Ilana: It'S radical and important in many ways. Right. You have to remember your own sustainability while fighting.
[00:15:54 - 00:16:58] Damien: Oh, yeah, yeah, very much so. And I mean, we could return to that theme, actually, about, you know, whether sustainability is sustainable. But there's. There's an important need, as you say, to just make sure that you can carry on personally. But also, I think when you're involved with a committee of people that's still relatively small about how you work as a group and look, honestly, I find that to be a challenge. But then again, when I talk to other groups, like, for example, our sister organisation in Bayside is bcag, which is the Bayside Climate Crisis Action Group. They've been going for about a decade, longer. They've probably got about 1,000 people on their email list, which is extraordinary. But it's really the same story. It's about half a dozen people on the committee that turn up, do the work. Everything from putting out the chairs to the PR to, you know, it might be similar to running this station. I think any small organisation has a very similar story and that's just the way it goes.
[00:16:58 - 00:17:14] Ilana: Absolutely. And you do a lot of work. You've been incredibly busy. You've been on a recent tour of Austin Maynard Architects developments up north at Park Life and Terrace House. What are your first impressions of those projects?
[00:17:16 - 00:19:31] Damien: Look, the first impression was the warmth. I mean, we went up to. In Park Life, we went up to the third or fourth floor where the architect Ray Dinn has a place there that he and his family live in and he was kind enough to show us through. And it was a day a bit like today. It was quite chilly and there was a bit of a breeze and we walked into this apartment and it was just like T shirt weather. It was. And it was such a lovely warmth too. Not a. Not a dry warmth like you get with, say, central heating. And besides being taken by the book, matched recycled timber floorboards. That caught my eye. He raced over to the back door and said, oh look, the door's still open. And it was. It was open about 15 centimeters. And the front door obviously had been opened to let us through. So even in that moment where I assumed there was a breeze that had come through, when he opened the front door, the warmth was still there. And then someone said to him, so what's the heating in here? And just said, there is none. It's a 9.1 star building. There's no heating and no cooling and no bills. No bills, no fossil fuel emissions. They don't do that sort of waste of space in terms of individual laundries in each dwelling. So there's a communal laundry, same with Terrett House. And that they stressed was something that was done in consultation with those that had formed the community to want to be the residents. And, you know, it's just a very smart use of space. And obviously the technology involved in the heat exchange, you know how these things work. I don't, but the fact that it is possible to demonstrate these things now and then watch as other commercial developers that do involve real estate agents and others are now using the same sorts of things as selling points, which before, I think they sort of just perhaps dismissed or looked down their nose at or thought it was an extra that perhaps wouldn't necessarily meet the market's needs.
[00:19:32 - 00:20:03] Ilana: And it was very brave of first Breathe, really to test the market with the Nightingale development model. And then many others joined. And those developments are by Austin Maynard as also a developer and architect. That's why they had so much yellow. I can't imagine a commercial developer letting you have so much joyous color everywhere. But it's amazing. The aesthetic is amazing as well. Many ways. It's a big building, it's a tall building. Remind me, how many stories was it from your visit?
[00:20:04 - 00:20:05] Damien: That's a good question.
[00:20:05 - 00:20:07] Ilana: It looks around 5 in the.
[00:20:07 - 00:20:22] Damien: The Park Life building must be about. Maybe that's higher. I think they might have been able to go a bit higher. They had to knock one story off, which became the sort of rooftop terrace. And that's pretty good too, sitting out there.
[00:20:22 - 00:20:23] Ilana: Stunning views.
[00:20:23 - 00:20:35] Damien: Yeah, just incredible views, really. And. And that was. They were saying, actually that was where Ray and his wife had their wedding. And so there's some lovely photos of all the guests, you know, seated on there.
[00:20:35 - 00:21:01] Ilana: Those photos are on the Austin Maynard website as well. And all the tech, tech data and all the details and what, what really makes that building function is so amazing. So I really encourage people to actually jump on and have a look at that. But that, that moment that you described in the building, both doors are open, front and back, breathing through, breezing through. You've got air, but it's warm and nobody's paying for it.
[00:21:01 - 00:21:14] Damien: No. And, and it's, it's winter time and it's. As I was describing, it was a, it was a very gentle warmth and I can only liken it to, excuse.
[00:21:14 - 00:21:14] Ilana: Me.
[00:21:16 - 00:21:31] Damien: Being in a building, for example, where the, the sun, you know, has a nice aspect during the wintertime. The sort of place that you imagine a cat would want to call up, crawl into a ball and just, you know, go to sleep. That was, it was that kind of cozy warmth.
[00:21:31 - 00:21:35] Ilana: I'm not a cat person, but I, I hear they're very good judges of character.
[00:21:35 - 00:21:37] Damien: I think so. Yeah. And aspect, evidently.
[00:21:39 - 00:22:13] Ilana: Exactly right. It's. And it's, it's part of that joy. It's not just the color that they use, but also some of the shapes to break up the overall mass of the building. They, they bring in these little pointed roof elements and they dissolve how big the form is. And that's, I think, what people are really worried about sometimes when they're here for five story development is going up, but that building mass. But they've added something that we call fine grain, which basically just means adding enough detail that you don't have this massive wall up against you.
[00:22:13 - 00:22:39] Damien: Yeah, very much so. And I mean, I guess perhaps further to what we were talking about earlier about vernacular style, it's color bond and that to me evokes, you know, things like the corrugated iron veranda. Colourbond would have to be one of the most well used products in building in Australia ever. Perhaps only rival by Hardy's.
[00:22:40 - 00:22:43] Ilana: And it's home to you, as I'm sure it's home to many people.
[00:22:43 - 00:23:19] Damien: Yeah, yeah, that's right. And also, I mean, you think about the sort of the legendary stories of, you know, Bradman, for example, practicing his art underneath a tank stand. And it's a corrugated iron tank stand. So there's those sorts of functional elements which are brought into it too, because there are actually a few of those corrugated iron water tanks on the roof in both places, I think in both places, definitely in Terrace House. And you know, to me that's, that's evocative of seeing those sorts of objects, you know, in other places at earlier times in my life. And I'm sure for Others as well.
[00:23:20 - 00:23:30] Ilana: And you can have that, you can have those feelings of home in an apartment building in a community where everyone knows each other, everyone knows their neighbours and they live near where they want to be.
[00:23:30 - 00:23:31] Damien: Yeah.
[00:23:32 - 00:23:34] Ilana: So you had some members from council join you on that tour?
[00:23:35 - 00:24:28] Damien: I did, yes. We really just sort of played matchmaker. I was describing it yesterday. And so, yeah, the mayor, Hardy Saab came along, Councillor Chris Hill, the deputy came too, and Councillor Steve Stacos, who's been mayor three times and has experience working in the Housing association area, as does Chris. And so we also had the general manager for Planning and development, Jonathan Goodman coming along too. And it was a really good sized group to go through with a couple of other people from Zero Kingston as well and to be shown, you know, those places from people who live there. So Sophie Whitakers, who's the general manager for ama, she lives in Terrace House and was kind enough to show us through her apartment too. And that had a very similar sort of warmth to it.
[00:24:30 - 00:25:04] Ilana: It's very telling, isn't it, when people who worked on the project, and there's a number of architects who live inside these buildings, who worked on the project, who have run the project, choose to live in there. So not just something they've fobbed off to the market. I don't know many other buildings. I have heard of a Mirvac development from the 90s in South Yarra that many of the employees bought up early on, but these developments under the Nightingale model as well, and ama, very, very popular amongst the people that work on it. So it's really a testament to the quality of life you get in such a place.
[00:25:05 - 00:27:05] Damien: Yeah, that's right. And look, I mean, I think the reason for doing that is obviously to just, you know, you get such a wonderful feel for a place as well as a look at it when you do a walkthrough. Right. And I think that's a terrific way to experience, you know, built space, built environment and it sort of, I think, offers an opportunity to, for people to sort of anchor their understanding of what's possible locally in that experience that they've had elsewhere, which, given the distance we are from those sort of centers of development at the moment, is not really achievable here at the moment you can't do a walkthrough of a similar type building. But I think where this area will start to change and where, I hope, I hope that the quality of building stock improves so that for residents here, you know, their long term running costs, for example, will start to be decreased. I think it will be in whoever does it, that one development that can at least achieve that same, you know, type of level or maybe even go to 10 stars. Right. That would be, I think, achievable at the moment. And once people here can walk through and experience what I was describing to you earlier, then I think they'll go home, they'll do their sums and they'll look more readily at that type of thing and perhaps have less of that knee jerk reaction against, oh, five stories. You know, there's a heightist kind of approach to, you know, thinking about, thinking about building character and that sort of thing at the moment. But I think that that might start to change and ideally will start to change pretty quickly.
[00:27:05 - 00:27:16] Ilana: You raise an interesting question on neighbourhood character. What are some of the positions? What does your group think about neighbourhood character as a planning mechanism, as something council often gets worried about?
[00:27:17 - 00:29:17] Damien: I mean, individually, there's a variation. Some people would see that there is great value in, you know, being able to retain, say, detached dwellings on suburban blocks in order to preserve vegetation cover, which obviously is a big concern at the moment because like a lot of places, you know, this area is seeing less and less cover. And then I think there's others who would perhaps like to see a greater amount of focus on the public and the private in thinking about character. I mean, my assessment of the way that people discuss and think about character at the moment is it's very much on the private side of the fence as opposed to the public side. The public side is taken, I think, as a given, as a space where, you know, there's nature strips and there's places for cars. And I think that if we are to move to a more walkable community, then there's a need for us to think about the urban environment and character in a more total sense, in a more holistic sense. And that's going to involve, you know, some new discussions, I think, about the, the kind of strategic land use that we currently undertake and the sort of value that we put on land at the moment. You know, we, we have, we have a strange situation here where really not, not just locally, I should say, but really in Australia, generally land is spoken about as land and then we have other commodities. So maybe when land gets started to be seen as something with a value like we'd value a commodity, then maybe we can have a smarter discussion about.
[00:29:17 - 00:29:22] Ilana: What'S used when you start caring about land and place and country. Like gold.
[00:29:22 - 00:29:24] Damien: Yep, that's right.
[00:29:24 - 00:29:32] Ilana: And look after it and repair it. And restore it to a neighborhood character that was before the colonized neighborhood.
[00:29:32 - 00:29:32] Damien: Yeah.
[00:29:34 - 00:29:54] Ilana: I believe often historians grapple with this question, particularly in cities or civilizations with lots of layers of history where you choose how far to go back. And if you were really pushing the neighborhood character question, wouldn't you repair critical ecosystems which we're so lucky to have? Beautiful wetlands and the Karam Karom Swamp?
[00:29:54 - 00:33:21] Damien: Yes, very much so. And also areas that have been built on that existing swamp. I mean, you know, you've got one in four houses in Kingston that are built on the historic swamp. And at the moment that's subject to an 80 centimeter flood overlay, which is the state government standard. But in other places like Moyn Shire in southwest of Victoria, where Port Fairy sits today, they've voluntarily undergone a new assessment that's using a 1.2 meter assessment. I believe that Queenscliff has been, you know, considering a similar sort of move that's in a similarly very low lying area. And it wouldn't surprise me if Kingston looks at that as well. I mean, interestingly, to come back to the question of character, there are people who would generally be opposed to greater amounts of development who are starting to use some of the flood arguments as a reason for trying to restrict supply in that sense of restricting heights. I hesitate about going down that path though, because I think that if you're going to make those sorts of claims, you need good evidence to back it. And although, you know, we're aware of the general threats and the differing likelihoods of change under certain, you know, climate change scenarios, it is important to note that in local instances there is variation. I mean, for example, in this area here, we're talking about areas that are essentially flooding behind the sea in the sense that, you know, the sea level rise that we're talking about, the risk of it is about water coming up the creeks and the tributaries and then flooding the areas behind. And then you've got the problem of the historic flow from the Dandenong and Memorin creeks, you know, going in the opposite direction towards the bay. So that raises situations that can't necessarily be mapped from other places onto here. And it just requires a bit of nuance and careful consideration because, you know, as you're aware, we are talking about nationally trillions of dollars worth of housing stock. We're talking about a situation where obviously private insurers and reinsurers are doing their calculations as well. And I'm not sure whether you and I discussed this earlier, but there are people here who last year were contacting Council saying I've received an assessment for my house insurance, it's $10,000, another person saying it's $6,000. And these are standard sized properties. And the view that was expressed to me from people who know more about this stuff was that it's likely that their reinsurers have put red lines through this part of the the world. And then it does become a live question about, well, in the event that there is an extreme weather event that damages people's property or makes them homeless, who pays? At the moment we have a situation where we assume that insurers are going to cover part of it, but when you've got a situation nationally where they're still profitable, still returning money to the shareholders, but their costs are getting higher and they have their own in house experts now, I mean, follow the actuaries. That's right.
[00:33:21 - 00:33:23] Ilana: See where the risk sits. Follow the actuaries.
[00:33:23 - 00:33:28] Damien: AIG employs climatologists and meteorologists now, you know, they're providing expert advice to them.
[00:33:28 - 00:34:07] Ilana: So, you know, it's a massive matter of equity really. And I think about all my wonderful neighbours that I've had the pleasure of meeting in the almost a year now that I think about it, that we've lived in this area and I think about them being able to age in place and stay in their community or their home for reasons of, insurance for reasons of. Is their city safe for them, Are their streets safe for them? Can they comfortably walk? And that's really a question, right? If we can make a street, a town, a place safe for both elderly and children, we're really covering people, we're.
[00:34:07 - 00:36:16] Damien: Covering very much so. And I think that's where, you know, we're also going a long way towards meeting those targets that we, that we need to meet as far as reducing our emissions to zero as quickly as possible. But in doing so, to borrow a phrase from Kim Stanley Robinson that he uses in his newish novel the Ministry of the Future, he talks about a good Anthropocene. And I think we're at a moment where we can plan for a good Anthropocene or we can do nothing and watch it roll out as a shit show. And when it comes to, you know, returning to that theme of equity, I think it's really beholden on us when we have a very good idea with a high level of confidence about what the likely effects of doing nothing are going to be on people who are born today or who are too young to participate in the political process or don't have the capital to participate in the process as ratepayers, right, as owner occupiers, then equity demands that an equal weight be given to their needs. So for instance, if you have a child who's in prep this year, might be 4 or 5 years old, they'll be 31 or 32 years old in 2050, and that's probably an age at which we can say with some confidence they're probably going to be looking for a place to start a family if they want to do that. Now, I think there's a question mark that there's a question that we should be asking ourselves, which is that if we know with the level of confidence that their chances of being able to find shelter here are going to be harder, or their ability to walk the streets is going to be more difficult because of extreme weather, or that their parents will be elderly by that time will also be finding it more difficult, then if the choices we're making now are likely to result in those things, we should probably be reconsidering the choices we're making now.
[00:36:17 - 00:37:05] Ilana: That's why I'm really interested in the priorities of Zero Kingston 2030. When I first learned about them, in many ways I was a bit surprised because it's not. Many environmental groups identify urban forestry as a main strategy, identify the importance of housing as a main strategy, identify the walking city is going to be these big ideas. And architecture is very much about ideas. So I'm really loving this, this thread that it underpins everything else we're going to do because if we can get those three things right. Correct me if I've misunderstood your strategies, but if we can get those three things right, we will have a sustainable Kingston that will be adapted and adaptive for whatever's to come.
[00:37:06 - 00:39:34] Damien: Very much so, no, that's hitting the nail right on the head. I mean, I think it's an opportunity for us to be able to plan in a way that actually makes the community healthier and wealthier by saving money from long term household running costs, and that also can at the same time overcome some of those persistent problems that we have throughout the community to do with social isolation. For example, I mean, I've not driven a car here for about the past seven years and truth be told, it's pretty shit when you don't drive a car in a place that's very much car centric and you're this far from town, there are times when you have that kind of FML moment. But the other flip side to that is that in walking around everywhere, I've made more Friends locally, just from bumping into people. And this is one of the things that, of course, urbanists have been saying for years, that one of the things that makes good cities function is the fact that you can bump into one another and that cities bring together people of diverse backgrounds and skills. And that's where you see innovation, because people have discussions like this and we come to new conclusions about things and new ideas and business opportunities and friendships start to emerge. So that's where, you know, I'm. I'm still hopeful enough to think that something better can come from this, even with the knowledge that, at least for, you know, our generation and likely for the next, that things are going to get pretty tough. So I think we can plan to mitigate against those likelihoods, even though, you know, none of us know 100% for certain what the future is going to hold. But we can say that based on the best available evidence that we can be planning for this sort of scenario and trying to create something better out of it. And without laboring the point too much. I mean, that's why I sort of prefer these days to use that phrase planning for good Anthropocene, rather than something like responding to climate change, because I think it's got to the point where that phrase now is sort of so empty or people kind of roll their eyes at it and it becomes part of that again, that background static.
[00:39:34 - 00:39:37] Ilana: Where's the tangible hope in that as well?
[00:39:37 - 00:39:38] Damien: Yeah, yeah.
[00:39:38 - 00:40:02] Ilana: Because I think my neighbors and I can all visualize a greener street with beautiful leafy canopies when it's too hot to walk the dog along the beach, which is where I meet up with everyone and chat and say hi. So necessary, those interactions of community, because we are inextricably interconnected, we can't be separated from each other for that good future Anthropocene.
[00:40:02 - 00:40:03] Damien: Yeah.
[00:40:03 - 00:40:18] Ilana: So how do you imagine Kingston if you closed your eyes and thought about the ideal that council adopts, the projects, the policies, the hopes. How do you see the main street? Probably Nepean Highway, I guess, is our main street.
[00:40:18 - 00:40:53] Damien: Well, I really love what they've done in places like Lancaster, California, where they had a very similar five lane, what would you call it, four and a half, five lane thoroughfare going through the middle of town there. And a few years ago they decided to talk to the community about doing something new. And they did that in a deliberative process and spoke to some designers. And to their credit, they chose really the most daring design. And the most daring design was to put what they Call a round blast. Sort of Barcelona style ramblas down the middle, which is treed. They've moved most of the parking.
[00:40:53 - 00:41:03] Ilana: That's a big promenade. Beautiful, big open promenade with lots of people can just walk through and stalls and carts and shop vendors and skateboarders. I think they've let the skateboarders stay.
[00:41:03 - 00:42:14] Damien: Yeah, I. I think they probably have roller skaters. It's been. They've reduced the speed limit to. I'm not quite sure the conversion, because it's American, but I think it might be 15 miles an hour or 25 miles an hour. Anyway, it's a speed that's low enough for cyclists to use it safely without the need for protected lanes. And they reduce the traffic to one lane each way. So that means that there's a slowing. When you narrow the lanes, there's a slowing effect on the traffic. And each Thursday, instead of having the parking, there's a weekly market. And so the run blast is used for stall holders. Now, that is entirely possible here. And to my surprise and also joy, I saw the other week that there's a proposal to do just that at the Frankston end of Nepean Highway. So there's a proposal to do it, I think, between where Davies Hotel is and Oliver's Hill, along that bit that kind of bends around as you head towards the peninsula. Now, if they're going to kick it off, all well and good. It's the same road. We just continue the project until it moves up to Morde Elich Creek and then hopefully beyond.
[00:42:14 - 00:42:16] Ilana: Exactly. They have their case study.
[00:42:16 - 00:42:17] Damien: Yeah.
[00:42:17 - 00:42:25] Ilana: And Kingston actually has an open application at the moment for parklets, so hospitality businesses can get on board.
[00:42:25 - 00:42:29] Damien: I have. Look, I have mixed feelings about parklets.
[00:42:29 - 00:42:29] Ilana: Me too.
[00:42:30 - 00:42:31] Damien: Why do you have mixed feelings about parklets?
[00:42:32 - 00:43:08] Ilana: I'm concerned about the privatization of public space. I support the idea of parklets generally. I think there's so many businesses around where I live that would really benefit from all that space, especially in our ongoing pandemic. Outdoor dining is great options for people and it's good for business, it's good for people, it's good for the activation of the street. But I don't want to see the privatization of beaches like they have all across most of the Mediterranean in Europe happening here. So when I see that in Elwood cropping up on the beach, that makes me a bit nervous.
[00:43:09 - 00:43:10] Damien: Well, for like beachside bars or something.
[00:43:10 - 00:43:29] Ilana: Yeah. There's beachside kiosks, beachside. And the restaurants and bars take up sand space and put up there and St Kilda too. Elbert and St Kilda have it right with marquees and umbrellas and sun chairs and lounges, but you have to buy a drink to sit at the table. So I wouldn't want to see that on the shore.
[00:43:29 - 00:44:54] Damien: But no, no, it's something that's actually been underpinned by some research at unsw. They were looking at this issue of transforming car parking. And in this particular project the team there decided to essentially sit some officers or bureaucrats of some kind on the car park and see what people's responses to it were. And to their surprise, rather than, I don't know what the hypothesis was, but it was something along the lines that the researchers hypothesized that people would respond well to this idea of them moving people out of buildings, in other words, that could be repurposed and then out into the open, essentially just working outside. And it was not liked and for exactly the reason that you talk about it was perceived as being the privatization of space. But then when they did the follow up and instead converted it just to green open space that anybody could use, like for example, the pop up outside the Sun Theatre in Yarraville, it was much more widely accepted. And I mean, to return to that thing we talked about earlier about, you know, strategic land use, when you look at the parklets in town, for example, after closing time, they're just strewn with leaves. No one uses them because they're perceived as private space.
[00:44:56 - 00:44:58] Ilana: People don't feel invited to come there.
[00:44:58 - 00:45:00] Damien: Yeah, they put a picket fence around it.
[00:45:00 - 00:45:04] Ilana: And if it was public space, you could get your coffee take away and sit there.
[00:45:04 - 00:45:04] Damien: That's it.
[00:45:04 - 00:45:23] Ilana: You could get a meal takeaway and sit there and still use it. Yeah, around the clock, 24 hours. Yeah, but it's an interesting conversation, interesting question about what is it that we do give space to in a city and how much space we give to one car usually occupied by one person versus me and 20 of my friends in the parklet.
[00:45:24 - 00:46:54] Damien: Well, I mean, in that bit of public green, maybe there is, maybe it is time to offer a more critical response to parklets because, I mean, it occurs to me that in one sense they could be interpreted as ring fencing space for cars. It's not actually about ring fencing space for people. I think if we were serious about streets for people, then we wouldn't kind of go halfway. Like City of Melbourne's been having trouble with some of its one way streets, as I'm sure you're aware, where they've been designated shared spaces. But the drivers don't recognise people walking down them. They still see it as their space. And that's going to come down to also the charge that we put on that kind of land use as well. The idea that one can park the most polluting, the most dangerous, the most expensive and the most inefficient form of urban transport on a finite piece of land for free is nuts. You know, if you had a Martian who landed here and you tried to explain that to them, and then you explain that the really efficient piece of transport that runs up and down the rail costs you money, they'd look at you like you had three heads and say, I might just go back to where I came from. Thanks. This doesn't make any sense. You park the thing that sits still for 97% of the time and that depreciates in value 30% every year. And you do that for free.
[00:46:55 - 00:47:02] Ilana: And you could only do that for part of your Life. Yeah, over 18. If you can afford to own the car in this economy.
[00:47:03 - 00:47:05] Damien: That's right, yeah.
[00:47:05 - 00:47:15] Ilana: Or your parents car. If you can beg to borrow it and not scratch it up. Or for as long as you're able to drive, which for many people comes earlier than they expected.
[00:47:15 - 00:47:16] Damien: Or if you don't choose to.
[00:47:16 - 00:47:22] Ilana: If you don't choose to. Exactly. You should be able to stay in your community and stay connected.
[00:47:23 - 00:48:42] Damien: Yeah, yeah. And look, and that's where I think in that process of making a lot of these familiar things unfamiliar, that's where I get a lot of consolation from history. Because, you know, historically you can find good evidence, even just in photographs of this area where you can see that streets were for people. And really until that period of the 1960s when a car became affordable for people on a working class wage, the price dropped to the point where it was equivalent to about a quarter of the yearly income of a working male in Australia. That's when car ownership becomes normalised and then we start to design, or we planning authorities design streets around those cars. Now that's in the history of cities, that's a relatively short space of time. But of course in living memory for people that perhaps born at that time, it's completely normal. So there's a job to do in sort of making the familiar unfamiliar. But I think that's possible. We've done it before with things like smoking, the introduction of seat belts and a range of other things that we sort of, we take as being normal. So I think it's possible, possible here too.
[00:48:43 - 00:49:00] Ilana: And those examples you brought are actually brought in for the Benefit for the well being of the public, for the health of the public, which a cleaner, fresher, greener, safer, more walkable city, arguably is a massive public health issue.
[00:49:01 - 00:49:49] Damien: Yeah, yeah, that's right. I mean, perhaps someone would say that the. The major difference with, with cars is that car culture successfully sells the idea of individual freedom. And that's really what you're buying with that. And I think it's going to be sort of turning the notion of freedom around and, you know, considering Sol Griffith's work that we've got here in front of us, it's going to be freedom from the increasing costs that will come from running those things, whether they are electric or whether they are internal combustion and a way of, you know, talking about electric vehicles in particular as being public or, you know, in the Dutch style.
[00:49:49 - 00:49:50] Ilana: Car shares.
[00:49:50 - 00:50:07] Damien: Car shares, exactly right, Yep. So more of that sharing economy. Or even, you know, those wonderful cargo bikes, which, you know, probably the most efficient form of urban transport and an entirely possible option in an area that, I mean, where's the nearest mountain?
[00:50:08 - 00:50:09] Ilana: Oliver's Hill, if you can count it.
[00:50:10 - 00:50:12] Damien: There you go. So it's a very flat. It's a very bikable place.
[00:50:13 - 00:50:14] Ilana: Very, very bikable.
[00:50:14 - 00:50:15] Damien: Yeah.
[00:50:15 - 00:50:19] Ilana: We're lucky to have walking trails, but in a way that they don't necessarily connect.
[00:50:19 - 00:50:20] Damien: Yeah.
[00:50:21 - 00:51:29] Ilana: When you said there was freedom, it's really interesting, powerful imagery. I think for most people, in many ways it can really galvanize a movement, a community. And you said that word in my mind instantly, I thought of a forest. I don't think of a car as my freedom. I joke that my bike is my freedom machine, but I thought of a forest. I thought of going for a hike, being in nature, having the time to immerse myself in green space and that I work in the city, I studied in the city. And in those university years, when we got a moment for a break, we would go outside, lie down on the green lawn of the state library, look up, have the sun on us, especially in the middle of winter. And it was connecting to that green space that made us feel that we were on country, that we were part of something bigger than just a building or a university gave us that air. So it's very interesting bit of imagery. I think people don't consider that something they think frees them may actually entrap them.
[00:51:30 - 00:51:52] Damien: True. I mean, I've heard that part of the appeal of manicured lawns is that it taps into our ancestral practice of domesticating animals and that it's the presence of Grazing animals, that gives us comfort because of course, there's a source of protein for us from that period.
[00:51:54 - 00:51:56] Ilana: We haven't changed much, have we? Goodness.
[00:51:59 - 00:53:11] Damien: When I think about my late paternal grandfather who was a sometime farmer and kept an incredibly neat lawn, I do sometimes wonder whether that theory perhaps holds true. Although he didn't raise animals, he grew crops. There is something very neat about places that you see in rural communities. For whatever reason, but to return to the theme about trees and open space, there's often an assumption made about people that live in ordinary communities. And this historically is an ordinary community. You know, I've myself heard, you know, advisors to some very senior government ministers, for example, refer disparagingly to places like this, this far from the cbd as being places of, quote, low information people. And it betrays a kind of mindset, I think, that plays into the notion that working class people, ordinary people, don't appreciate greenery. You know, it assumes that what they want is a car park.
[00:53:11 - 00:53:13] Ilana: Deeply unjust statement.
[00:53:13 - 00:53:58] Damien: It is, and it's, it's evident, I think, or I should say sorry, that the assumption is reinforced whenever these sorts of issues get raised in public forums or these days, usually on social media. And if you, you know, if you want to really rile people up, it will be to make a suggestion to remove car parking. Because like we talked about, people associate that with freedom. And also a driver has a perception that is very narrow, very limited to them wanting to get that spot by the front door. And if they don't get the spot by the front door, then they reach the conclusion that there's a shortage of car parks. There's not a shortage of car parks. There was just a high demand at the time you wanted to get to the front door.
[00:53:58 - 00:53:58] Ilana: Right.
[00:53:59 - 00:55:18] Damien: And so the way that it begins to sort of become a self perpetuating conclusion in communities like this is because the response reinforces the assumption. And the assumption is often what political actors carry into office. But what changes that is when you sit down with people and start to have a conversation with them that begins with a question such as, how do you feel when you walk down the street? And I've done this with people around here and they will tell you when they're given that opportunity to say, I feel agitated, I feel stressed, I feel like I'm on alert all the time, I don't want to stay here. It gets treated like a drive through, therefore you behave like a drive through. And then when you show them a picture, say of St Kilda Boulevard or, you know, an Area of the gardens. How do you feel when you're in an environment like this? I feel calm. I want to bring my friends here, you know, so that's where perhaps a more deliberative engagement on these sorts of questions can be very useful. But that, that threatens people that come through into office, into political positions with a range of assumptions like we just discussed. So there's.
[00:55:20 - 00:55:42] Ilana: You've recently been providing feedback on the 20 minute city, the 20 minute walkable city plan for Kingston. And really what that means is you can work, you can live, you can play, you can meet all your basic needs in a 20 minute round trip by foot. How incredible would that be for it to come to fruition here?
[00:55:42 - 00:56:37] Damien: Oh, it'd be great. I mean, I mean to clarify, I wasn't actually providing feedback on that. Is it the walking and cycling strategy you're talking about? But I did sort of talk to it in that submission on housing and that that might be the one you're referring to. I agree. I think it would be great. I mean, in some ways I think it's unfortunate that 20 Minute City has become pejorative because of the criticisms and backlash that there's been getting, famously from places like Oxford where they sort of refer to as a 15 minute city. And then it's become an issue in places like Alberta, Canada, which has just had recent provincial elections. They've returned a very conservative premier there who's, who's very, very much opposed to these sorts of interventions and is a drill baby, drill kind of politician.
[00:56:37 - 00:56:45] Ilana: To clarify, the majority of this intervention is really to let people walk places comfortably and have mixed use development and.
[00:56:45 - 00:57:26] Damien: That threatens people who have a conspiratorial view that's been, that's been massaged and exacerbated by their experience of the COVID lockdowns. So look, personally I would tend to avoid the use of the term 20 minute city. Although the philosophy I think of walkability is what I prefer. I mean, look, really if I was pushed, I think the idea that I really love the most is the concept of designing streets for people. I think that borrows more from perhaps the Dutch example. You know, that didn't come about naturally. There's people here you can mention that to and they'll say, oh, but they're a different culture over there. No they're not. They just made different planning choices.
[00:57:27 - 00:57:27] Ilana: Everything's a decision.
[00:57:28 - 00:57:28] Damien: Everything's a decision.
[00:57:28 - 00:57:29] Ilana: It's about priorities.
[00:57:29 - 00:58:24] Damien: Yep. And it also took activism because you know, in the 70s when they had those terrible cases of kids Being hit by cars on the road, it was, it galvanised the political movement. They did the car free Sundays, it rolled up. There was also the oil crisis too, which I guess similar to our experience, pushed energy prices right up. But their response to it in designing streets for people is based around the idea that you still have car traffic and car transport. It's just that cars are treated as guests. And I think for me that's the sort of philosophy I'd like to roll with here where, yes, there's a need because, you know, particularly when you think about it from an all abilities perspective, there's people who just physically can't get out by foot or by bike or wheelchairs. They need a car and that's fine, but it's just that we start treating them as guests and put people of all ages and abilities first and then I think we'll have a really lovely place to live.
[00:58:25 - 00:58:28] Ilana: Absolutely. So what gives you hope for the future?
[00:58:30 - 00:59:34] Damien: Well, when I see places like Park Life, see what is being done with the built environment there, and reading Sol Griffith's work, I think he clearly sets out how you can achieve a zero emissions future for Australia with technology that's already here. And I think the other thing that gives me a sense of hope is the prospect of us being able to jettison some of the elements of our economics and our political systems that have got us to this point in time. It's not necessarily going to take much. I think there's a great amount of fear amongst some people about the prospect of change. But I think we can do that without a great deal of disruption and come up with something that will be much better than doing nothing at all.
[00:59:35 - 00:59:41] Ilana: It's imagining our future with the tools we already have, the simple things we already know.
[00:59:41 - 00:59:42] Damien: Really very much so, yeah.
[00:59:42 - 00:59:45] Ilana: Thank you so much for joining me tonight, Damien, it's been a pleasure.
[00:59:45 - 00:59:46] Damien: It's been fantastic.
[00:59:46 - 00:59:46] Ilana: Thank you.
[00:59:46 - 00:59:47] Damien: Thanks a lot.
[00:59:52 - 01:00:12] Ilana: Thanks for joining me for another evening of radio architecture with Alana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Karam studio on Bonnarong Country. You can replay this show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting Community Radio. Take care of.
[01:00:27 - 01:00:38] Damien: Hi, my name is Paul Kennedy and I'm a sport reporter for the abc. And when I'm not listening to the abc, I listen to Radio Karam. Tune in and enjoy.
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Place Making Urbanism Research Politics

2 | June 14, 2023

Rachel Iampolski on placemaking, tactical urbanism & running for government

Rachel Iampolski is a researcher, creative producer and higher education professional interested in the design and governance of more spatially just cities. Rachel is completing a PhD in urban geography at the Centre for Urban Research at RMIT University where she also teaches in the Planning faculty.

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Rachel Iampolski on placemaking, tactical urbanism & running for government
[00:01:09 - 00:03:20] Ilana: I'm Ilana Rasbash and this is Radio Architecture. Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country and welcome back for another episode of Radio Architecture with Ilana Rasbash. We are broadcasting to you live from the Karam Karam Swamp on Beautiful Bunurong country tonight. My guest this evening is Rachel Yampolski and I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional lands on which she does most of her research. That's the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung country of the Eastern Kulin Nations. Rachel is a researcher, creative producer and higher education professional interested in the design and governance of more spatially just cities. Rachel is completing a PhD in urban geography at the Centre for Urban Research at RMIT University where she also teaches in the Planning faculty. She recently contributed writing and commentary to key publications and forums including the Conversation, ABC Radio Planning News and the Festival of Urbanism. Rachel presently works in the Community Engaged Learning in Community Engaged Learning and Research space while also running her own tactical placemaking platform Public Street. She is a representative for the Australian Cities Research Network, an early career Advisor of Public Space for the UNESCO partner organization City Space Architecture and a founding member of the alliance for Praxis Research. She is experienced in both bottom up and top down styles of governance, but believes in the power of a mode that sits between both these approaches with a focus on evidence based future, future focused and socially just policy making. Rachel was the Greens candidate For the Victorian 2022 state elections for the District of Caulfield. Welcome Rachel, thanks so much for joining me.
[00:03:20 - 00:03:21] Rachel: Thank you. Looking forward to it.
[00:03:22 - 00:03:29] Ilana: Well, the first question I ask all my guests is what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:03:29 - 00:04:31] Rachel: Yep, I think my earliest memory would be the stairwell of the apartment that I was born in or grew up in, which was a classic 60s brick three story apartment block in Caulfield. It was one bedroom and I we lived there. It was me, my parents and then later my brother and my mom's students because she was a tutor. All in one bedroom apartment anyway. But I don't remember the apartment that well but I remember the stairwell vividly to the apartment. It was terrazzo marble. I would assume faux. Looking back at it now, but I didn't know the difference of time. I remember it was, you know, had all these specks in it, and I just. Yeah, it was white with orange and red and brown terrazzo specks. And I remember sometimes pretending to have fallen asleep in the car because I didn't want to walk the three flights up. So, like, if I pretend I'm asleep, my dad would carry me into the house. It was the apartment. And so I remember pretending to be asleep as he's carrying me. Looking down and seeing the terrazzo marble.
[00:04:31 - 00:04:34] Ilana: Stairs out of the corner of your eye. Just jiggly.
[00:04:34 - 00:04:36] Rachel: Yeah. So I would assume somewhere, like somewhere around 2 or 3.
[00:04:37 - 00:04:42] Ilana: Yep. It's super popular now as well. People would die for that. Terrazzo.
[00:04:42 - 00:04:43] Rachel: Yeah, exactly. Yep.
[00:04:44 - 00:04:53] Ilana: So, interesting you mentioned the stair is your first memory. Yep. Because you do research and your PhD at the moment is largely on liminal spaces.
[00:04:53 - 00:04:55] Rachel: Yeah. Didn't even make that connection. That's a good point.
[00:04:55 - 00:05:03] Ilana: Point. And the staircase. Yeah, it's a liminal space. What does liminality mean? What is a liminal space?
[00:05:03 - 00:06:19] Rachel: Yeah, great question. So liminality is just basically a concept that refers to something that is in between things. So, you know, people talk about the liminal space as a concept. You know, people be like, oh, I'm. Maybe I'm sitting in this kind of liminal space while I'm waiting to find out whether my visa got approved or something like that. We're not quite in one country or another. And then, of course, it can also refer to physical spaces, so stairwells as being the in between in an apartment block as being the in between space. If you have your apartment and your private sphere as one space and the outside world, the street, as another. Kind of very obviously understood registered space. The liminal space was. Would be the one in between, I. E. The stairwell or, you know, the entryway, et cetera. So I think these are these kind of. When you start paying attention, they're all around us, but they only really exist conceptually if we have an idea of what is considered space and what isn't considered space. And so if we have this, you know, if we can register the street as a space, we can register our apartment as a space. But for some reason, we don't register the stairwell as a space. It therefore falls into this liminal category. But if you viewed the stairwell as a space, it wouldn't technically be a liminal space, would it?
[00:06:19 - 00:06:28] Ilana: So we have a couple More definitions to tease out there, I think, for tonight's listeners as well. But a balcony is also a liminal space, right?
[00:06:28 - 00:06:52] Rachel: Well, no, so that's an interesting one. I would consider personally a balcony, a threshold space because it sits halfway between the public realm and the private realm, which is that it sits between your apartment and the street. However, if you're viewing it from the street, the balcony, you might view that as a liminal space because you're not quite looking into someone's apartment, but you're not quite looking at the street either. I think that makes sense.
[00:06:52 - 00:07:00] Ilana: Oh, totally. I think in the last few years we definitely all felt and learned the importance of these in between spaces.
[00:07:00 - 00:07:00] Rachel: Yes.
[00:07:00 - 00:07:20] Ilana: Half inside, half outside. Where can I get fresh air when I can't leave my house? Where can I sit when I'm not feeling well? These inside, outside moments. So then what constitutes the difference between a space and a place? And often, particularly in your research circles. I know it's quite a complicated question.
[00:07:20 - 00:07:20] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:07:21 - 00:07:28] Ilana: Maybe I might offer my, my thought on it and you tell me how that, how that sits in your, in your research.
[00:07:28 - 00:08:16] Rachel: Yep, I think so. A space. You know, the commonly accepted definition of how of a space versus place is that a space is purely the physical constraints. Like it's, it's purely the physical four walls of a room or a physical landscape or. Etc. Whereas a place is what happens when that space, a physical space is activated by people, by memories or by associations you hold. And that's when it sort of transitions from a space into place. So really spaces, you know, with. Sans people, with our people, or the impact that people have had, the legacy, even if they're not physically in the space at the time. So, yeah, that. I think that would probably be the most common working definition, if you will.
[00:08:16 - 00:08:22] Ilana: That's definitely how I've always thought about A space becomes a place when people bring their life.
[00:08:23 - 00:08:23] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:08:23 - 00:08:34] Ilana: And their energy and their passions and their activation. And maybe this idea of. Then these places have memories and an intangible cultural heritage.
[00:08:35 - 00:09:00] Rachel: Absolutely. And, and those things don't have to be positive. Right. It could be, you know, you can, you can have a negative memory of a place, of a space, of a building, for example, and in your mind it's therefore now a place because you've associated negative memory, even if it's derelict, like it feels like there's no people around, but there's a feeling that you as a person have now assigned to it. It's sort of turned into a place, if you will.
[00:09:00 - 00:09:02] Ilana: It transforms with our Memories, Exactly.
[00:09:02 - 00:09:27] Rachel: Yeah. With our memories. Associations. Exactly. So some people, some, if you like, not to get too academic about it, but there are some academic theories that would like some of the foundational theories in research that look at this topic that would say place is purely space, just viewed through the lens of a person, if that makes sense. So when you put it through a human lens, that's when it becomes a place.
[00:09:27 - 00:09:47] Ilana: I think I really felt that when I went traveling before the pandemic and I was in Japan and I went into those tiny little bars in Kabukicho that like only five people. And I truly experienced that definition because as an architect, I walk around cities and buildings, constantly looking at it.
[00:09:47 - 00:09:47] Rachel: Yes.
[00:09:47 - 00:09:49] Ilana: Constantly looking at. As a building, as an object.
[00:09:50 - 00:09:51] Rachel: As design.
[00:09:51 - 00:10:17] Ilana: As design. Yep. And then sometimes when you travel and you change your mindset, you say, oh, today I'm not looking at the greatest building in the world today. I want to feel what it's like to be in one of the most famous rooms in the world. And I had that moment and I was in one of these bars, very fortunately, because I was with a Japanese language speaker where it was members only, basically.
[00:10:17 - 00:10:18] Rachel: Yep.
[00:10:18 - 00:10:46] Ilana: And I got to feel what it was like in one of those really unique rooms where everyone knew each other and they were there because of their cultural interests. They were all music musicians and writers and poets. And that's when that definition became so. So black and white for me. So then part of your work is Praxis, alliance for Praxis Research. And Praxis is the. The practical manifestation of theories and ideas.
[00:10:46 - 00:10:47] Rachel: Yep.
[00:10:48 - 00:11:09] Ilana: Along with that and your work with Public street, your organization, you're really interested in place making, and you've had some really fantastic installations and activations, most recently at the Queen Victorian Market, if anyone was lucky to pop by and see it. Biorhythm. Yeah, biorhythm. With beautiful light and sound.
[00:11:10 - 00:11:12] Rachel: Yeah. Immersive plant sculpture.
[00:11:12 - 00:11:51] Ilana: Yep, exactly right. So I wanted to ask about what is the importance of actively doing place making work and deciding that that is necessary. And I also am curious as to where does that come for you in the process? Is that placemaking that happens before a building is built? Do you think that's important or do you think placemaking is, in many ways, has been a remedial effort for you, that there's been a situation in a city and you've. And it's not quite right or in a suburb or a local area, and you had to come in and fix it up. So tell us, tell us about place making.
[00:11:51 - 00:12:26] Rachel: Yeah, great question. I think for me, definitely the way I view it anyway, and that's just from my personal, professional lens. But there's. That's not to say it's the only way you can approach placemaking, certainly, but for me, definitely does come from the remedial lens. I think when it is used as a tool in the design phase, it's more in that sense, it's more just about human informed design principles rather than specifically place making. And that should be the goal in general. Like, that should be the golden standard we're aiming for.
[00:12:26 - 00:12:28] Ilana: I certainly think so. I believe buildings are for people.
[00:12:28 - 00:12:39] Rachel: Exactly. And so that's like when people talk about place making being built from the ground up, I'm like, well, I don't know if that's really place making or that's just good design at that point. Do you know what I mean?
[00:12:39 - 00:12:41] Ilana: That's a really interesting critique.
[00:12:41 - 00:14:26] Rachel: So for me, I'm more interested in it as in that remedial sense. Okay. We've got the built forms that we have, and they're not serving us the way that they should be. So that's when I think place making is a really interesting tool to come in and play around with that and find ways to improve it. And I'm also really interested in it as an advocacy tool as well. So I think, to me, it's hugely important. I think placemaking has sort of where, you know, the origins of placemaking are contentious because some people say, well, what, you're just describing good design, or you're just describing landscape architecture, or you're just describing human informed design thinking. Like, what. What about this is placement? Like, where's that delineation? And that's, you know, that's valid critique. I'm not arguing, but I think for me, placemaking has come about as a prominent movement now distinctly as a result of gaps in design thinking and design outcomes. And I say design in the broader sense. I don't just mean architectural policy as well. Policy, policy, governance. Exactly right. Urban planning, design, landscape infrastructure. Exactly. All of it. Just generally how we design the environments that we live in, in the broader sense of the word, from all facets. And so there's so many holes in that process and there's so many conflicting forces that have other agendas than just good livable outcomes for people. And as a result, I think. And people feel that. People feel the impacts of that. And place making, I think, has come around so prominently as a result of that. Are people trying to be like, okay, how can we remedy These, what are other things, things we can be doing. It's almost like an instinct, you know, it's almost like a instinctual sort of knee jerk reaction to that outcome.
[00:14:26 - 00:14:37] Ilana: Well, it's sort of like when the. If the instinct hasn't quite worked, if the creation of the space hasn't been intuitive enough to. Or consultative enough.
[00:14:37 - 00:14:37] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:14:37 - 00:14:44] Ilana: Co designed enough to lead and spur on the use and enjoyment and life in that space.
[00:14:44 - 00:14:45] Rachel: Yeah, place.
[00:14:45 - 00:14:50] Ilana: Place making helps reinject it. You're like, yeah, you're the kombucha starter.
[00:14:50 - 00:16:14] Rachel: Exactly, absolutely. And so that's why for me I do see it and where the space I'm interested in is that remedial space. However, I think, you know, the principles that can be learned from how it's used remedially should absolutely then be used for when it's ground up design. You know, we can learn a lot of lessons from placemaking and also from tactical urbanism, which is essentially place making but led by citizens. So really informally, very lo fi interventions largely out of necessity, like people painting, you know, pedestrian crossings onto the road where there isn't one, for example. That's usually what tactical urbanism is. And so I think the instinct for why we want it and the kind of design principles that people play around with when they do it I think are really useful learnings for improving design when you're doing from the ground up. But yeah, largely I see it as remedial and, and I'm also really interested in it as an advocacy tool because if you're only ever doing it at the citizen level or at this sort of filling in the gaps level, you're not really achieving structural change. And so I think any place making you do, not any, but when you do successful placemaking projects, you should be trying to push those as examples, as case studies to advocate for those better design principles in the first place, including through to government, which is sort of how I ended up increasingly in the political space, because I was like, well, it needs to come from both ends.
[00:16:14 - 00:16:49] Ilana: But yeah, so you ran for local government and for state government. And I really, I really admire that because I listened. It was a conversation many moons ago I had heard and a prominent scientist and science communicator was being interviewed on the radio, I think, and they were saying, oh, why'd you do this? Why'd you run for the Senate? He didn't get in. And he said, because good people with expertise in this field that we care about have to go in and have to go forward and put our hat in the ring. So congratulations on putting your hand in the ring. And you had a bit of an upswing actually, didn't you?
[00:16:49 - 00:17:47] Rachel: Yeah, I think, yeah, I got a little increase from the previous one from, you know, previous election, which was great and you know, was running in a seat that's been held by the Liberals for all 70 years since its inception. So I knew it's. Realistically, you know, it's. I'm not. We knew we're not going to win, but that's not why we were running. We were running exactly for the reasons you were saying and that, you know, it's about spotlighting the issues that you care about and sort of creating very slow groundswell with sort of this longer vision in mind. Many, many elections away, realistically, until we're seeing the kind of change we want to see. But, but you know, you have to start somewhere and. Yeah, exactly. Right. I kind of would describe myself as a reluctant candidate in that I never wanted to run, I still don't wanna run, but I felt like I had no choice, you know, so like, if you, if you wanna see the kind of stuff you wanna see being talked about and spotlighted and people have an option to tick it on a ballot, you need to put that onto a ballot.
[00:17:48 - 00:17:55] Ilana: Absolutely. And you also contributed to policy writing, so you've been absolutely in the thick of the political process.
[00:17:55 - 00:18:51] Rachel: Yeah, exactly. And so I think it's, it's not a place I ever saw myself. I saw myself very much as a behind the scenes person and a creative person. So this was a complete 180 for me. And I still don't quite understand how it happened or that it happened. I'm still shocked by it because it feels really unnatural to me, but at the same time, natural at the same time because I, you know, talk a lot about spatial justice, I talk a lot about the design of more equitable cities. And, and I've always thought about it from a bottom up perspective, from like a citizen led grassroots perspective. And that's only as important as that is. And I will always be fighting in that space. I think it just, the outcome is going to be when the top down and the bottom up meet in the middle. And I was like, I'm not seeing the sort of progress that I want to be seeing from the government sphere. So, you know, why not just get amongst it basically?
[00:18:51 - 00:18:51] Ilana: Yeah.
[00:18:52 - 00:19:08] Rachel: So I think, yeah, it was sort of. It was, it was. I never saw it coming. But looking back in hindsight, it makes sense how I've ended up here. Because if you're talking about justice, be it spatially or otherwise. You're talking about law, you're talking about policy, talking about government. So yeah, there's no way around it, unfortunately.
[00:19:08 - 00:19:17] Ilana: Design and architecture has so many intersections with all that. Yeah, architecture in many ways is everything. That's why we talk about these topics. That's why.
[00:19:17 - 00:19:18] Rachel: Yes, absolutely.
[00:19:18 - 00:19:52] Ilana: Interesting multidisciplinary guests two weeks in a row so far. They're interested in many, many things. I do want to give out the text number tonight if any guests want to text in and have any questions for you. The number is 0493-21-3831. So give us a text in the studio. Don't call us, just text us if you'd like to ask Rachel or contribute anything to the conversation. I'm also wondering, someone's listening at home tonight and they're thinking about, I might run for government. I might go for council, might give it a go. What would you say to them?
[00:19:52 - 00:22:21] Rachel: I say do it. I'd say absolutely do it. No, no. But all jokes aside, I would, I would say do it. I would really say do it. I think there's so many. I completely understand why it's intimidating, but people really get amongst you people, even if they don't necessarily align with your political beliefs, you know, etc, they're overall really supportive of people to put their hand up. And there is a lot of infrastructure in place, a lot of support in place for first time candidates. There's lots of programs specifically for women running, for young people running, people of color running. There's lots of, if you fit any of that criteria, there's lots of programs and there's also lots of programs through the Municipal association of Victoria, which is sort of the peak body for government, local government. They have lots of classes you can attend and they'll all be ramping up in the lead up to an election, which the local government is in October of next year. So there's still some time. So if you're anxious from that perspective, particularly if you're running as independent and don't have party backing, there's loads of infrastructure in place and even if you don't win, you learn so much, you get connected with your community, you have the most interesting conversations with people, you challenge yourself on a personal level obviously as well. So I think there's, there's immense value in running if you're running with the right intentions and you're running with passion in mind, with, with passion for your community mind and good outcomes in mind. As I said like winning is not the only metrics by which I think you can consider a campaign successful. It's about, like I said, starting that slow groundswell, having conversations with people and having an option for people on a ballot that's significant in itself. So even if you want to run just for that and for the experience of it, that's still really successful, even if you're not getting necessarily the votes you're after and you'll end up, I guarantee if you do it, so many opportunities will come from it as well because you're sort of now connected in the community and people know your face and your number now and you're going to get calls, I guarantee, for better or for worse. So I still have people sometimes emailing me asking about, you know, if I can do anything about the bins. The day the bins are being picked up from when I did local council elections in 2020. And I'm like, honey, I didn't get in. But they remember you and they're like, oh, you know, you're a candid. Can you do something about the bins? So anyway, God bless. But, but people will message for all kinds of things. So, you know, it's a really valuable experience.
[00:22:21 - 00:22:29] Ilana: That's really good advice and I hope somebody who's been sitting on the fence or, yeah, itchy on the edge of their chair just takes the plunge and goes for it.
[00:22:29 - 00:22:57] Rachel: Yeah. And I think I had the real. I really thought, oh, well, who am I to run? You know, I'm not sort of a middle aged white man with a background in law and small business, like the classic image you have in your mind of a politician. And then I looked up the rules of, you know, how to be eligible to run and you have to be over 18, register to vote, registered to vote in the municipality that you're running and not been to jail in the last five years. And essentially, if you've met those criteria, you're good to go.
[00:22:57 - 00:22:59] Ilana: Be the change you want to see.
[00:22:59 - 00:23:12] Rachel: Yeah. So there's really, there's no, like, you're, you're suitable if you think you're, if you want to do it, that's enough to be suitable to do it, basically. So, yeah, I would encourage anyone to do it that's listening.
[00:23:12 - 00:23:17] Ilana: Go for it. Yeah, go for it, dear listeners. Yeah, get on board or at least.
[00:23:18 - 00:23:35] Rachel: Attend training and get, get a sense of what's involved. You know, look up the Municipal association of Victoria's training, go along to a workshop or webinar they host. You know, get a taste for it at least. So you see what you think before you commit, because you don't have to commit formally on paper till like the 11th hour before the election. So you got lots of time.
[00:23:35 - 00:23:41] Ilana: I think that's really important information as well, because people don't often know that. Is that accessible?
[00:23:41 - 00:23:43] Rachel: Is it super accessible? Exactly.
[00:23:43 - 00:23:47] Ilana: That the political process is actually there for their participation.
[00:23:47 - 00:23:48] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:23:48 - 00:23:50] Ilana: Democracy is there for your participation.
[00:23:50 - 00:23:51] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:23:51 - 00:24:11] Ilana: And while we're on the topic, everyone should start gearing up to learn about and talk about the upcoming referendum for indigenous recognition in the Constitution. While we have touched on the topic of the democratic process because it is a privilege, but very much a right and got to be involved in it at the very least, please vote.
[00:24:11 - 00:24:11] Rachel: Yep.
[00:24:12 - 00:24:51] Ilana: But there's so many people in our local community here in Kingston who are very passionate about this area, who are really passionate about their beachside suburbs and in more inland suburbs as well, who are getting involved in local community groups. My guest last week, Dr. Damien Williams, was the president of one of those groups. And not only would they be potentially interested in running in government and considering politics reluctantly, they also do a lot of their own grassroots place making work.
[00:24:51 - 00:24:52] Rachel: Yeah. Great.
[00:24:52 - 00:25:01] Ilana: And I'm quite interested in. What's your favorite place making project or tactical urbanism project that you've recently done? Can you describe that a little bit for us?
[00:25:01 - 00:25:03] Rachel: Oh, that I've personally recently done that.
[00:25:03 - 00:25:09] Ilana: You'Ve done either yourself with Public street or with your alliance for Practices Research Collective.
[00:25:09 - 00:26:08] Rachel: That's a great question. I think. Well, probably the most recent one that I can think of that was really unexpectedly impactful. Like we. We sort of did it thinking it wouldn't be, you know, it was just sort of a small project we were doing on the side and it ended up being quite impactful, I guess. For. For us was. Was a project with. With the alliance of Praxis Research and Publisher was a collaboration and it was called Open Lab. It was for Melbourne Design Week of last year. And it was essentially a cupboard that we purchased off Facebook Marketplace. And it is designed to be sort of like a tactical mobile placemaking unit so people can move it around and set it up to kind of create their own sort of infrastructure for social engagement, whatever that looks like. You know, if you just.
[00:26:08 - 00:26:11] Ilana: What color was it? Can you describe the cupboard?
[00:26:11 - 00:29:30] Rachel: The cupboard was gray and it was very old. Was very. No, so it was. Well, it was brown, but it was graying, I think from being out in the rain for so long. Someone was just throwing it away basically from. It was really easily from the 70s vinyl and. But on the inside we painted it essentially rainbow, but in waves. And we had hand tie dyed fabric that pulled out onto a hills hoist. So inside you open the cupboard and there's a hills hoist, a mobile hills hoist that you put out. It stands out and then you connect fabric across it so you kind of create shade. And there was like a pull out picnic table. There was, you know, soft furnishing, those rugs, cushions, etc. And lots of equipment to play with. And we also used it as a mobile podcasting studio. So we had people come and join us inside the space, if you will, for conversations around public space. And it was really fun because we put it in really so it looked so janky. I mean it really was very cheap. I think we did the whole thing for, I don't even know, no money at all. It was all op shopped or, or donated materials and it was very low fi. And we put it in places like Spring Street. We put a Spring street right opposite Parliament. We actually had to get a permit to put it in a parking bay which took months of negotiation with the city to get. And we put it on Gertrude Street. We put it in front of the art gallery. We put in these quiet, sophisticated spaces, if you will, and quite formal spaces. And it was, you know, it's a particularly great image looking at it opposite the treasury building on Spring street and people would walk past interested and confused what it was. And we had a sign saying, you know, this is for free to use. Like come on in. Like we had, we had an. A frame that sat to the side and you could, you know, but people, if we were in the space ourselves, people would come up and chat and would be so interested and would, you know, poke around and use the space. But if we left it on it attended, I. E. Left it for people to open and discover and play with. People would definitely stop and look but were really resistant to use it. Which was a super interesting learning experience about the kind of. There's sort of, I think in Australia there's. We're very good at following rules in Australia and we have a real respect of public and private space and that delineation and there's sort of this resistance of how to make spaces your own. We don't really play with, with our social infrastructure, sorry, our physical infrastructure, that much public infrastructure. And I think this was the extension of that. We were very physically, we're very. In terms of like yes, our embodied engagement with spaces were very reserved as a Culture, I think, for better or for worse. And so there was. Yeah, there was a real resistance from people. There was interest, but ultimately resistance to go ahead and use it. Because there was this perception, I guess, well, what if this is someone else's? Even though we had a big sign saying it's free to use, whereas when you saw other people using it, it sort of gave you the social license to come and engage. It was like, okay, well, this is clearly okay to use, because here are these other people using it. So it was. It was a really interesting experiment, in a way, like a playful sort of experiment in public space.
[00:29:30 - 00:29:32] Ilana: That's a very interesting observation.
[00:29:32 - 00:30:30] Rachel: Yeah. So it's on wheels, so we still have it in storage. It was recently used at Queen Vic Market, again for an event. Someone was hosting an event. There was a conference for people in the gig economy and he was interested, as a researcher from Monash, interested in using creating spaces in the city for gig workers to be able to come and rest or charge their phone or get, you know, get a hot drink. And he was. Wants to basically build a space and there's a hosting of a symposium to kick this project off and they use the open lab there as a place for people to sit. So, you know, it's. It's doing the rounds, it's getting some use, but it's. It's also very clunky and heavy to move. So we're going to try to prototype another version that's a lot smaller and lighter and can be more mobile, essentially. But, yeah, it was a very interesting experiment, but it was ironically, one of the cheapest, easiest. Most sort of didn't have much thought into it beyond just, oh, let's do this fun thing. And I think that's usually where the best outcomes come from anyway.
[00:30:30 - 00:30:32] Ilana: Yeah, there's really unexpected.
[00:30:32 - 00:30:37] Rachel: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. There's no pressure and that. Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah.
[00:30:37 - 00:30:39] Ilana: You've done a lot of walking tours in the city as well.
[00:30:40 - 00:31:59] Rachel: Yep. Love. I love walking tours. I just love them. I love doing derives, which is sort of this concept, this French concept of walking without purpose. I think it translates. There's no direct translation, but loosely translates to drifting. That's what I've been told. I don't speak French, but I've been told it sort of loosely translates to drifting in that you're walking with no destination in mind, no aim, you're just going for a walk and you're meant to. The concept sort of encourages you to get disorientated and walk, Walk without a destination or without Quite the geographic awareness of where you are. So that sort of allows you to disassociate from your expectations of what the city is or what the space that you're exploring is based on what you've known it to be. You can dissociate from that and sort of see it from this fresh lens, if you will. So we lead these sort of tours, we lead these derivatives where we go out with people. So that's always fun. And also, I used to. I haven't done it for a little while now. I think the pandemic slowed stuff down. But we used to do readings in public space. We used to collect to do reading groups on. On topics of public space in the public space that we're reading about. So that was always fun. But have to. Yeah, have to get back into that. I haven't done it in a little while, actually. If you want to go out reading in public space, let me know.
[00:31:59 - 00:32:05] Ilana: These. Interestingly, these are all things people in the local community can pick up themselves.
[00:32:05 - 00:32:06] Rachel: Absolutely.
[00:32:06 - 00:32:10] Ilana: They can go for a deriv. Have you sometimes applied rules to your derivatives?
[00:32:10 - 00:34:31] Rachel: Like. Yes, turn right every. Exactly. Because what happens is because we, the people that join in are so familiar with the city in that they're locals or have been here for a while. So we have to set rules to help with the disorientation. Right. So be like. Oh, yeah, exactly. Every time you get to an intersection, turn right if the street starts with a vowel, turn left if it starts with a consonant. Follow any smells, you know, like, follow the sound of clanging, whatever. We'd set some rules to help disorientate. And you actually end up in the weirdest spaces you've ever been. And I think so that kind of stuff is really fun. But I think in terms of place making projects that the community can get involved with, I think those kind of projects, like these walking tours or derives reading groups, are really fun for thinking about space from a new lens, exploring that topic. But if you're looking at projects that are making sort of more impact on your local community, then I. What I would really advise people to. To get their hands dirty with is tactical urbanism projects, which, like I said, are basically placemaking, but at a very low fi level and led by the community and very much with the idea of improving the outcomes of your local community and the public spaces around it. So a classic one is that people close off streets themselves. They just go out and buy. So involves the sort of infrastructure and symbols of formal sort of infrastructure building and used strategically tact you know, with, you know, specific tactics in mind by citizens. So, you know, classic ones would be high vis vests so you look formal in what you're doing. Traffic cones is a great one. Tape and paint. So really simple interventions that have that sort of credibility of big infrastructure projects. And so if you've always wanted to close off your street, for example, to car traffic, to put on a, you know, like, let's say a block party or something, and you can't be bothered going through all the permits and the whole rigmarole of going through council to do it formally, you can't just put out some witch cones.
[00:34:31 - 00:34:34] Ilana: I was going to say that is a little bit of a cheeky solution.
[00:34:34 - 00:36:56] Rachel: It is a cheeky. And that's. And that's. But that's what tactical urbanism is, right? It is. Guerrilla urbanism is a tax. It's a cheeky and strategic intervention in place of like a very bureaucratic heavy system that limits citizens ability to actually cultivate their own local spaces. So it's like, okay, well, maybe we can go around the rules a little bit. But I guess the other caveat is that it's done in ways that have no permanent implications on spaces around them and infrastructure. Right. So you're not doing any kind of permanent damage or anything. That's not reversible. It's all temporary, it's all removable. So all it is is witches cones. You can move witches cones in a second. If someone comes along, a local laws officer, and asks you to move your witch's cones. So, you know, so you can, you can do that. Slightly more intense one is to paint onto the road if you want to paint. You know, I've seen these great ones where people are trying to slow down traffic on their local street because cars are coming down really fast, they've ridden to local council, it hasn't been actioned, etc. And people just paint circles or shapes onto this road, which naturally cause. Forces drivers to slow down because people will be like, oh, what is this? So they end up driving a bit slower. And so, so they've kind of taken making their street safer into their own hands. So there's lots of interventions you can do. And if it's something you're interested in and you're listening, I'd recommend googling tactical urbanism examples and seeing there's so many great ones from all over the world and they're just really simple and easy ways to do it. And I think if, yeah, if there's. If you've ever walked past this space and thought, oh, gee whiz, wouldn't it be better if it was like this? Or you could access this, or this was closed off or whatever. There's probably a way you can try and do it yourself, at least for the day. It won't be permanent, but you can get away with it for a day, maybe. And if you do it, I would recommend, depending on the legality of it, taking photos and sending it to your counselor, being like, look how great this outcome was. We closed the street and we had all this intervention, all this activation, so we had kids playing street, whatever. Can you think. Can you think about doing this in a more permanent way? And that's where I see place making and tackle urbanism as a. As an advocacy tool. If you're sort of, then taking these good examples, good outcome examples up to your relevant government authority. Yeah.
[00:36:56 - 00:36:59] Ilana: Is a test. A test scheme?
[00:36:59 - 00:37:02] Rachel: Yeah. Just casually inviting your listeners to do crime.
[00:37:02 - 00:37:07] Ilana: But I should note that there are very much plenty of permits mechanisms.
[00:37:07 - 00:37:13] Rachel: No, there are. And there are formal ways, of course, if you've got the time and energy there, do the formal route, of course, but if you don't.
[00:37:14 - 00:37:30] Ilana: And at the moment there's also. We touched on this last week with my guest, but there is an open application process with the City of Kingston for parklets. And the thing about this application in particular is that it's to hospitality businesses only.
[00:37:31 - 00:37:31] Rachel: Gotcha.
[00:37:32 - 00:38:10] Ilana: So if you're a shopkeeper on the street and if you're not a hospitality business, you can't apply for it, that permit, as far as I understand it. So what are some recommendations you can make to hospitality businesses looking at designing their parklets to be a bit more open, to be a bit more inviting, a bit more democratic if. When the. When the store is closed to encourage people to use it or to encourage people to stay longer. Can. Can you make any suggestions to. To improve the. The civic quality of parklands? Because they're complicated. They can. They're definitely contentious, definitely.
[00:38:11 - 00:40:03] Rachel: So I think greenery is a big one, particularly if you can get away, if you've got the budget for it, for real greenery. Like, if you can put. If you have the budget for inbuilt planters on the periphery of the parklet? I think it's really great just visually. And then likewise, I think I see a lot of parklets that have thought about the interior, but haven't really thought about the exterior, and it's just the exposed timber. So if you've got any capacity to offer any Kind of, you know, visual application to the outside, even if it's just a lick of paint, you know what I mean? And then likewise, I think to go to the topic of how to have to get the most function out of it, even when your business is closed. For example, if it's a cafe, you know, how. How can people use it after 4 o' clock when the cafe closes is I think, inbuilt furniture. So rather than the temporary, rather than the restaurant furniture that you pull out every morning and take away every afternoon, if you can have inbuilt furniture in the park, or at least some of it, like sort of bank seating on the periphery and then you bring out tables, that. That's a great one. And I think also visual diversity is. Is important like that there's. It's not just one homogenous design or shape play around with the heights of the seating or the colors of the seating or the fabric. You know, just some. Something visually to break it up and create a bit of intrigue when people walk past. And if there's again any capacity, I think also. And again, this obviously depends on permits and where you're on the street to basically reduce. To bring some kind of canopy or something that sort of sits overhead, even if that's just a row of fairy lights or just, you know, two sort of, I don't know the architectural terms, but two, you know, rows of timber that creates sort of a bit of a.
[00:40:03 - 00:40:04] Ilana: Like an arbori.
[00:40:04 - 00:40:44] Rachel: Yeah, exactly, yeah. You know, something like that. This obviously has to be, you know, structurally, structurally sound and, and survive the elements. But something that creates a little bit of quasi ceiling, if you will, I think is really important for human scale people like that. The ceiling feels like it's there. Like it's there basically. Especially if you're in a street with really tall buildings either side, the human scale gets really warped and you feel really small and therefore not very comfortable on the street. So if you're particularly in a street with, you know, three, four, five plus story buildings, it would be great to have some kind of canopy overhead just from that sort of human experience. I think they're really useful.
[00:40:45 - 00:40:46] Ilana: Those are all really good tips.
[00:40:46 - 00:40:47] Rachel: Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:47 - 00:40:56] Ilana: Encouraging any listeners who are putting in parkland applications at the moment to see how can you open that up a bit more for your community.
[00:40:56 - 00:41:34] Rachel: But it is a shame though that it is only open to hospitality, isn't it? Because imagine like a dry cleaner, I assume a dry cleaner business doesn't count as hospitality. Assume it's zoned as Retail or something, I'm not sure. But imagine if it had a. If it had a small. Even a small parklet out the front where you could wait. What? You know, with magazines or something from the inside while you wait for your dry cleaning. You know, like, I think just small things like that, I think help create a more social street, a more social high street. So it's a shame we can only really extend our imagination around what that could look like to hospitality only. Yeah.
[00:41:34 - 00:42:07] Ilana: That's my hope for the future, with parklands being taken up, that we can be a bit more discerning, maybe, with who we offer it to. And of course, you probably couldn't give a parklet to any business that applies, but if the application can demonstrate the value, add to the street, to the public, to the amenity of the service, that laundromat's a perfect example. I'd love to see council assessing that on its merits and helping streamline those processes and even streamlining block party applications.
[00:42:07 - 00:42:08] Rachel: Absolutely.
[00:42:08 - 00:42:15] Ilana: I know once upon a time, a little cul de sac area used to do that and they're thinking of reinvigorating it. So.
[00:42:15 - 00:42:16] Rachel: The block party.
[00:42:16 - 00:42:18] Ilana: Yeah, the block party experience. Yes.
[00:42:18 - 00:42:20] Rachel: And why did they stop doing it?
[00:42:21 - 00:42:23] Ilana: I think it was the pandemic.
[00:42:23 - 00:42:23] Rachel: Oh, sure.
[00:42:23 - 00:42:24] Ilana: Yeah. Okay. Perhaps.
[00:42:25 - 00:42:25] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:42:25 - 00:42:27] Ilana: Well, before my time in the local area.
[00:42:27 - 00:42:28] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:42:28 - 00:42:41] Ilana: With the street that I grew up in, in the city of Glenara area, they have an annual block party in the little park, actual park, at the end of the street.
[00:42:41 - 00:42:45] Rachel: At the end of the cul de sac. Yeah. Because you got that infrastructure to do it in. Exactly.
[00:42:45 - 00:42:58] Ilana: So. So they already have the infrastructure to celebrate rather than having to occupy tactically, tactfully, to. To create those moments for. For interaction.
[00:42:58 - 00:43:31] Rachel: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think. Yeah, There's. I think a lot of people want to do more, but find the process of doing it formally quite intimidating, even though most of it's, you know, if you want to find out the information, you will be able to find out the information, but it's taxing and it's intimidating and I think it turns a lot of people away. So, you know, I think it's. It would be great to see councils find ways to make that a lot more accessible to people. And in the interim, I think the other option is to do it guerrilla style.
[00:43:31 - 00:43:39] Ilana: Guerrilla Gardeners, that was a very popular show briefly. Yeah. Small run season on commercial television.
[00:43:39 - 00:44:47] Rachel: Well, that's a great example. Also Verge Gardens. Guerrilla Verge Gardens, which is when people are transforming the nature strip in front of their own property. To, you know, a veggie garden or an edible garden or just planting non edible native plants. I'm not sure the rules of Kingston, but a lot of councils that I know of allow it. It is legal to do it. However, if anyone complains, if anyone has any issues with the verge garden, you will get a letter in the mail to remove it. So it depends. I mean, every council's got slightly different rules. I know some councils are a lot more supportive of it and others less so, but that's another great example of ways you can sort of reinvigorate the public realm in a way that's accessible and that, that's still, that's right in front of your house. So that's space you're allowed to occupy according to most council laws. I mean, probably look up Kingston specifically before you do it, but I would imagine it's okay. And that's another great one people are, because I think something like, I read a statistic that in suburban areas, about one third of open green space is nature strip, which is huge if you.
[00:44:47 - 00:44:49] Ilana: Think about it, like manicure lawn.
[00:44:49 - 00:45:41] Rachel: Yeah. Massive. And it's doing that lawn is doing nothing for biodiversity, visually, it's doing nothing. Like it could be serving so much, serving people and insects and animals and biodiversity so much better than it is. And of course, I understand council does not have the infrastructure to turn every nature strip into a verge garden, but you have the right as a citizen to do it. And there's also community groups that go around and support you doing it. They share, you know, cultivated seeds and advice on how to do it. So that's another great example of tactical urbanism that has sort of come about as a response to a lack of, you know, appropriate biodiversity in your neighborhood. And people have come up with this solution and it's a great solution. And now it is being adopted by councils, which is great to see.
[00:45:42 - 00:45:44] Ilana: Is a nature strip a threshold space?
[00:45:44 - 00:46:06] Rachel: Yes, I would say so, definitely. Oh, actually that's a great question, isn't it? I'd be curious to see what other people say. I would see it as a threshold space, but I would imagine there's people that just see it as the public realm and not the threshold space. So that's a curious one, isn't it? I wonder. I, I personally would, but I could imagine other people might see that as, as just part of the street, therefore public, not in between public or private.
[00:46:07 - 00:46:10] Ilana: Sometimes you get these moments where people have put down pavers.
[00:46:10 - 00:46:10] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:46:10 - 00:46:18] Ilana: Through their nature strips. They can go directly into their car and that, for me, is definitely a threshold moment.
[00:46:18 - 00:46:41] Rachel: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Right, yeah. So it's. It's sort of. Because most street designs will have the footpath, the cemented footpath and then the nature strip and then the gutter. And so I could imagine, if you're. For some people, it is. The nature strip is the threshold space between the footpath and the road, and for other people, it's all part of the street, so it'd be interesting to see how people view it.
[00:46:41 - 00:46:54] Ilana: Last week we touched on the topic of fine grain and these threshold spaces, these liminal spaces, they also. The phenomena that enhance and contribute to the fine grain.
[00:46:54 - 00:48:13] Rachel: Absolutely, yeah. And it's. I think, for me also, fine grain is the stuff you don't even necessarily think about. Like, it's just sort of there. And it's only when you're forced to stop and think about it that you realize how much quote unquote, liminal or threshold spaces exist around you. And there this sort of cowboy space in that it's not quite clear who owns it and who's responsible for it. And even if there is a formal owner. Right. But I just mean when you walk past, there's a sort of feeling that it's not quite clear whose it is. And so sometimes I think it feels neglected for that reason, because no one quite takes ownership over it. Which is why I think verge gardening is great, because maybe previously thought, oh, well, this is just this place that the council owns. However, it's your responsibility to mow it. Right. Because it's the nature. The nature strip in front of your property is owned by the council. It's not your property, but it is your responsibility to mow it. So you have a responsibility to it. And so I think it's great to see that sort of dynamic being flipped when people are activating it in a way that they want to activate it through. Through plants or through planting in general. So, yeah, it's. It, yeah. Threshold and liminal spaces are almost what you make of it. Right. It almost comes down to personal perception of what is and isn't. Yeah.
[00:48:14 - 00:48:16] Ilana: But they're very important for a quality of life.
[00:48:17 - 00:48:55] Rachel: Oh, hugely, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's mostly what you're experiencing when you're in the public realm. You know, not so much of what you experience when you're out walking about is a liminal spaces and threshold spaces, and there's so much untapped potential in them as well. I think they're really neglected, often from. From a government lens, from a design lens, and from a civic lens, from citizen lens. And so that's what I'm saying. It's great to see when citizens respond to that lack of thought by, by, you know, just claiming it and doing something with it, I. E. A verge garden. So yeah, I think there's loads of potential there from all actors to do more with them. Yeah.
[00:48:56 - 00:49:03] Ilana: And sometimes doing something joyous and exciting and a bit silly. I remember during the lockdowns, the wooden spoons.
[00:49:03 - 00:49:04] Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
[00:49:04 - 00:49:05] Ilana: Villages everywhere.
[00:49:05 - 00:49:44] Rachel: Yeah, exactly. And it's sort, it's sort of like people like, oh wait, we can do fun things, we can play with space. We don't play with space here. It's a bit of a shame actually. But you're allowed to. And even if you're not, what's the worst that will happen? They'll take you, make you remove your spoons. I mean, do you know what I mean? So I think I would, yeah, if you, I would encourage anyone listening to think about ways you can play with space and, and, and, and, and, but, but I, I understand the resistance. I understand people think, oh well, I don't have authority over this space, I don't own it, et cetera, or I don't have permission, therefore I won't do anything. But I'm here to tell you, you probably have more permission than you realize and if you don't, no, nothing's gonna happen.
[00:49:44 - 00:49:45] Ilana: Or you can apply for it.
[00:49:45 - 00:50:17] Rachel: Well, you can apply, yeah. If you're, if you're really, you know, litigious, you can apply or you can talk to the owner of the property. If it's a private property, you know, this ways around it, but it just needs, there needs to be, you know, it needs to be led by someone. It's not going to happen on its own. So if you see something you want to do, something you want to play with space, just go for it. There's, there's, there's a, there's a means and if not that space, there'll be another space. But it has to be self driven, I think is what I'm trying to say. There's not going to be, it's, it's.
[00:50:17 - 00:50:19] Ilana: It'S not going to come to you.
[00:50:19 - 00:50:54] Rachel: Exactly. Yeah. And the more it's self driven and the more we see examples of that, positive examples and case studies, etc. And that then sort of ends up, goes up the chains and is seen by the local officers or the local government or state government, whoever it is, powers that be, developers, etc. The more that they see that it's being done and that there's a desire for it and the people responding positive to it, the more they are likely to do it from the bottom down. And then it might eventually come to you, but nonetheless it will only come to you once. There is, I think, a citizen push for it. Yeah. So we have to mobilize.
[00:50:54 - 00:50:56] Ilana: It's showing up for what you want to see.
[00:50:56 - 00:50:57] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:50:57 - 00:50:57] Ilana: Urban realm.
[00:50:57 - 00:50:58] Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
[00:50:58 - 00:51:01] Ilana: Much like the path that inevitably brought you to government.
[00:51:01 - 00:51:02] Rachel: Yeah, exactly.
[00:51:02 - 00:51:15] Ilana: So what are some of the developments in the urban planning space at the moment? And any ideas in urban planning, town planning that you're interested in and think are really exciting? What's coming up on the horizon?
[00:51:15 - 00:52:03] Rachel: Oh, that's an interesting question. I think. Well, oh, my gosh. Something exciting that's coming up. This. I mean, I don't know if it's coming up necessarily. There's. There's. I think there's. I think as a result of COVID there's definitely a lot more awareness for pub. The quantity and quality of public spaces available to people and, and just. Yeah, a lot more like awareness of that and the consciousness around that is growing, I think, which is excellent. And so things like when people took over golf courses during lockdowns and tried to make it into public parks, you know, these kind of things. And, and likewise, I think that message is being carried through to.
[00:52:03 - 00:52:03] Ilana: To.
[00:52:04 - 00:53:49] Rachel: To planners. So that's really exciting. So I think there's. There's a lot of progress happening there. And I think the other one is obviously the cost of living crisis is. And housing affordability crisis specifically, while in itself terrifying and, you know, horrible thing that we're going through and, and will continue for some time, unfortunately, it. I think it again, has raised the question around quantity of public housing distribution and where we're putting public housing and yeah, the quality and quantity of public housing that's being built. So I think that's exciting. And likewise the type. The typology of housing, I think we're starting to think a lot more critically about, as partially as a result of. Of the cost of the cost of housing crisis and, and partially also through changing demographics and also because of a lack of space. So we're really forced to think about what does the actual family home look like now and how can we be doing it in a way that's more efficient? Is it like, can we only think about the standard model of a standalone house with a big backyard? I mean, that's really not a thing anymore, essentially. And as. And. And in the interim, I Think we had really poor design outcomes as a response to that. And now we're really starting to think about, okay, maybe the, The. The sort of standard grey townhouse isn't the best alternative either. So I think there's. It. We're not there yet, but I think that level of discussion at a political level, at a planning level is better than I've seen it before. So I think it's making good progress. And so I think hopefully we'll see good outcomes from that as well.
[00:53:49 - 00:53:51] Ilana: That's really exciting. Into a new era.
[00:53:52 - 00:53:53] Rachel: Yeah, I think so.
[00:53:53 - 00:53:57] Ilana: Especially so people in communities can downsize and stay there.
[00:53:58 - 00:53:58] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:53:58 - 00:53:59] Ilana: And not have to move away.
[00:54:00 - 00:54:00] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:54:00 - 00:54:05] Ilana: Or young people can afford to stay in the area they grew up in or want to stay in.
[00:54:05 - 00:54:31] Rachel: Yep. And I think the other thing that's exciting is. Well, Generally, I think TikTok's really exciting because I go on there and I see these really interesting critical debates around planning being talked about on viral social media like I've never seen it before and being broken down in a really accessible way. And all of a sudden I'm going on TikTok and seeing people talk about third space, which is this. You know, I've never seen that topic talked about outside of academic spheres.
[00:54:31 - 00:54:32] Ilana: Can you explain?
[00:54:32 - 00:57:36] Rachel: Yeah, yes, certainly. Well, if you go on TikTok, someone will explain to you in a matter of 30 seconds, which is amazing. But basically, third space is just a space that is neither your home or your work. So first space was your home, and third space is your got. Your work is your second space. And then there was this argument, this sort of came about in America in the 70s, I think that there was. There needs to be a third space that people go that isn't home or work. And so people often described things like the hairdresser, you know, the hairdressers, the library, the laundromat, these kind of places where you can meet and mingle without being at home or at work. And then there's this. According to the theory, there is like seven specific criteria that have to. For it to meet a third space. But generally speaking, that's it. Right. And people are talking about this on TikTok now, being like, well, why don't we have more third spaces? You know, the way we design cities and the cost of rent and everything has eradicated third spaces. And these are integral to, like, commute, like maintaining the welfare of communities and connectivity in communities, living together. Exactly, yeah. And so all of a sudden people are talking about this, which is so exciting. And I Think. I think also we're seeing to a degree a resurgence around spaces like libraries and thinking more. There was, you know, this whole fear mongering that oh, in the, in the digital age, what, what's, what service the library's gonna have? I mean, everything's gonna be digital. We're gonna have ebooks. What, what the heck can libraries do? And where. Everyone thought they'd die out, but they didn't. They, they've had a complete resurgence because we've rethought what they are beyond just a place that collects books on a shelf. And now we're thinking about them as community spaces and spaces for community services. And so you're seeing things like now councils are putting social workers into libraries. So they're there available for people that come in, they're running classes, their study spaces, et like they've adapted in a way and, and really they're functioning as third spaces, which is exciting. We're also seeing that around things like community hubs at library, at schools. Increasingly there was this push for why should schools only serve children? They should be serving the community around the children, that is the families. And so now you've got these hubs that exist in school that are there for the parents and have wraparound social services so you can, you know, there's this sort of support social workers there, there's, you know, justice law and justice support for parents, you know, they run classes, whatever, there's bookable spaces and all. They created this infrastructure in public schools to service the community more broadly. And so I think we're starting to think about that. We're not thinking about our infrastructure in these really siloed ways. We're thinking about how can everything work in a more integrated way. And, and that's really like sort of pulling on these ideas of third spaces as well, but, you know, doing it more critically, I guess. So that's another exciting new sort of planning outcome I think we're seeing more and more of which is great.
[00:57:37 - 00:57:39] Ilana: That's what turns those buildings into places.
[00:57:39 - 00:58:17] Rachel: Exactly, yeah. Oh, and that's the other one. Oh, you just got me, just reminded me. The other one is, you know, since COVID with more and more people working from home, there's obviously now this question, well, what do we need all these office towers for in the city? And so there's a lot of questions now about refurb and that's a whole nother discussion. I mean there's so it's a whole detailed discussion around the pros and cons from an environmental perspective of refurbing or knocking down a building renew. But regardless, we're now forced to think about, well, what is the city if it's not just a space for office workers to go? So. And what are these tall towers for? So this. There's a lot. And I think Covid really turned it all on its head and in an exciting way.
[00:58:18 - 00:58:20] Ilana: Yeah, it's an exciting future ahead.
[00:58:20 - 00:58:23] Rachel: I think so. Yeah, we're definitely that sort of intersection, I think.
[00:58:23 - 00:58:26] Ilana: What's. What's the number one thing that gives you hope?
[00:58:27 - 00:59:06] Rachel: That's a great question. I think TikTok. No, I mean, all jokes aside, I mean, I'm obviously a huge TikTok fan, as you know, but I think the level of critical discourse on there around these topics that it brings to light is just so exciting. And I think it's mobilizing people that were previously not. I wouldn't say checked out, but just not aware of these topics. Right. Like when you mention it there. So it's like, oh, yeah, you're totally right, we do need more of them. But it's not that they didn't support that idea. They're just something they hadn't thought about before. And So I think TikTok is bringing around this new level of consciousness around these topics in this viral way that was never happening with other social media platforms or with YouTube. So that's really exciting.
[00:59:06 - 00:59:08] Ilana: And entirely public led.
[00:59:08 - 00:59:08] Rachel: Exactly.
[00:59:08 - 00:59:17] Ilana: And it's a really important reminder to designers, to architects, to planners, to government. Never underestimate the intelligence of the public.
[00:59:17 - 00:59:18] Rachel: Definitely.
[00:59:18 - 00:59:20] Ilana: Because they are all over it.
[00:59:21 - 00:59:21] Rachel: Yeah.
[00:59:22 - 00:59:24] Ilana: Thank you so much for tonight's conversation, Rachel.
[00:59:24 - 00:59:26] Rachel: Thank you. An hour flew by.
[00:59:31 - 00:59:50] Ilana: Thanks for joining me for another evening of radio architecture with Alana Rasbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Karam studio on Bonarong Country. You can replay this show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting Community Radio. Take care.
[00:59:54 - 01:00:15] Rachel: Hi, everybody, this is Whit from Spider Bait. When I'm passing through Carrum, aside from slowing down to 50km an hour and reminisce about doing the Ill Race Road rumba or the Whateley Street Wiggle, I like to tune in to Radio Karen and get down with the good vibes.
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National Refugee Week Construction Manus Island Christmas Island Naru

3 | June 21, 2023

National Refugee Week Special 2023

Catherine Franklin, Kumar Sinna and Jarred Turnbull share their experiences of Manus Island, Christmas Island and Naru respectively. This conversation explores the intersection of architecture, construction and policy to better understand the challenges being faced by refugees and those who try to help them

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National Refugee Week Special 2023
[00:00:03 -00:00:31] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
[00:00:47 - 00:03:42] Ilana: I'm Ilana Razbash and this is Radio Architecture.
Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country of the Eastern Kulin Nation. We are broadcasting to you live on Radio Carrum from unceeded Aboriginal Land. Welcome back for another evening of Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. The show where we discuss architecture and our civic life together. A reminder that you can text the Radio Carrum Studio on 04-932-13831 whilst we're on air or the text line is now embedded as a handy button on our Instagram page @radioarchitecture. If you're catching up via podcast, you can reach me on Instagram. I'd love to read and share your thoughts. Earlier this week, Tuesday 20 June, was World Refugee Day. The day was first established on this date in 2001 in recognition of the 50th anniversary of the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees. This week, all across Australia is National Refugee Week. Until this Saturday, 24th June, official events all around the country will celebrate and amplify the voices of refugees. This evening I have the great pleasure of being joined live on the phone by Kumar Sinna. Together with me in the studio is Catherine Franklin. Earlier this week, I was fortunate to sit down with Jarred Turnbull, who many listeners may know as the owner of popular local haunt Bo Gurks. Tonight we'll be discussing the intersection of architecture, construction and policy to better understand the challenges being faced by refugees and those who try to help them. Fleeing the Sri Lankan police, Kumar Sinna came to Australia by boat from southern India. He was detained offshore at Christmas island and then later at a camp in Queensland, totaling 17 months in detention. Kumar has worked in the community not-for-profit sector, particularly supporting other Tamil refugees. Catherine met Kumar within his first two weeks of arriving in Melbourne. They have since become good friends. Catherine Franklin is a social worker, activist and community organiser. She has worked with refugees both onshore and offshore, including having spent more than a year on Manus island working with 850 men across four compounds. Since 2011, she has been working with refugees in our local southeast region. Thank you so much to you both for joining me this evening. Kumar, I'd like to start with you, if that's okay. I want to ask, what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:03:46 - 00:04:58] Kumar: Yep. Good evening, everyone. My earliest memory, the building of. I remember as a child sleeping with my family in our small home in Sri Lanka, sharing the. Sometime, you know, it's raining, rainy season, hearing the rain, tripping on the roof. We always slept together next to each other, a common practice in Sri Lanka. We don't have our own rooms. The roof of our home was made from coconut tree branches tied together. And the sound of the rain was so peaceful and calming. Sometime when there was a heavier rain or the roof would leak and would slip, we have to move to another corner or sometime my parents cover, cover me and my other brother and umbrellas. It's a tropical country, so it was nice and warm at the same time. I still remember snuggling up to my mom and dad and big brother, just enjoying the sound of the rain and the love of my family.
[00:04:59 - 00:05:27] Ilana: Thank you, Kumar. That's a really beautiful image. I think the sound of the rain is something that many people connect to and love, especially the sound on their tin roof or tin shed. So. So many people love a colorbond roof. Although now we put insulation against weather and. And that sound. But it's. It's very popular and evocative for that reason that it. It connects us to where we are, connects us to nature, doesn't it?
[00:05:28 - 00:05:29] Kumar: Yeah, of course.
[00:05:29 - 00:05:33] Ilana: How about you, Catherine? What's your earliest memory of building a place?
[00:05:34 - 00:06:01] Catherine: Well, my memory is totally different from Kumar's. I grew up in Parkdale and my parents built a weatherboard house in the 50s and it was a bit of a community project. Our neighbour across the street, he was a tiler. We had lots and lots of empty paddocks all around us. No shops or anything. It was just fun. We could just run and play and do whatever we wanted. So, yeah, totally different.
[00:06:02 - 00:06:02] Ilana: Incredible.
[00:06:03 - 00:06:03] Catherine: Yeah.
[00:06:03 - 00:06:11] Ilana: One of those many hands make light work moments. And your parents built it really entirely themselves with community support and I think.
[00:06:11 - 00:06:35] Catherine: You know, some family members and everyone came together. I think we only. Maybe we had a brick house next to us, but they couldn't afford brick, so we had one weatherboard. Yeah. But it was a great commute. I mean, a really good house for our lifetime. Yeah. And actually Kumar did come and help you remember Kumar? You came and you and the Tamil refugees, you did lots of work on the house as well. You painted, yeah.
[00:06:35 - 00:06:36] Kumar: Yes, of course.
[00:06:36 - 00:06:37] Catherine: And the garden. Yeah.
[00:06:37 - 00:06:38] Ilana: That same house.
[00:06:38 - 00:06:40] Catherine: That same house, yes.
[00:06:40 - 00:06:40] Kumar: Wow.
[00:06:41 - 00:06:50] Ilana: Wow. That comes full circle, doesn't it? Kumar, how did you come to Australia? I'm really interested in your story.
[00:06:52 - 00:06:53] Catherine: And why?
[00:06:53 - 00:07:37] Kumar: Well, I came here by boat. It was a very unsafe journey. After end of the civil war In Sri Lanka 2009, many Tamils were fleeing overseas due to the persecution and discrimination. I was imprisoned and tortured three years of time. So I fled to India. Sri Lankan Tamil have been fleeing to India, particularly Tamil Nadu where Indian Tamils reside since the 1983 Blackjuds in Sri Lanka, however, they're still in refugee camps without any proper settlement arrangement.
[00:07:40 - 00:08:16] Kumar: I couldn't stay there for long for the reason. Then I embarked on a boat journey to Australia with the full hope of finding peaceful and uninterrupted sleep which I have been missing from most of my lifetime in Sri Lanka. And also to live life without fear of discrimination, oppression against in minority communities.
[00:08:17 - 00:08:20] Catherine: And Kumar, tell us about the boat trip.
[00:08:25 - 00:09:09] Kumar: I came in a boat along with other 40. About 50. Yeah, among other 50 people including children's. It was. So we were advised to sitting in, you know, underneath like there's a compartment, you know, under the. Under rooms in. So two days we stayed there. Then came after we passed the border, Indian border. I think we were allowed to come outside and yeah, to see the, you know, come and sit or stay somewhere.
[00:09:09 - 00:09:10] Ilana: To get some fresh air.
[00:09:11 - 00:09:11] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:09:11 - 00:09:13] Ilana: You were, you were in the hull for two days.
[00:09:14 - 00:10:00] Kumar: Yeah. Then the third day, I don't know what happened. The engine belts all gone broken and. Yeah, then we had some good fishermen. They made the fishing, you know, rod as temporary bell putting grease tar on it and, and, and start the engine again and. But however we had to change that every couple of hours while running the engine running and also one pipe which is pulling out, pulling out the water. It stopped working. So someone has to work, you know, people has to work in a routine to, you know, pull out the water from the tango inside.
[00:10:00 - 00:10:02] Ilana: How many people were on this boat with you?
[00:10:04 - 00:11:48] Kumar: About 50. But we six boys got together and be committed to that work. Both works. Then knee. I don't know, maybe six or seven. They. We almost finished all the foods and water and we, we, we. We didn't eat for a couple of days and drink. We finished almost water and only we had some water for the children. We tried to drink seawater and yeah, we tried many, you know, seawater very salty. So we try to reduce the saltiness, you know, drinking hot water or put tea on it or sugar in it. But nothing worked. People getting worried and scared. Women with the children start crying. Then luckily we reached the Indonesian board I think and some fishing fishermen found Us and, and without asking anything they started throwing biscuits and water. They, they, they look like angel for us. At that time we were fully starving. You know we thought we we going to lost or lose our life then, then we didn't. By the time you know we didn't have any proper map or the what it called satellite phone and GPS it those got broken as well.
[00:11:50 - 00:11:52] Ilana: So you didn't know where you were either.
[00:11:52 - 00:12:58] Kumar: Yeah. And so luckily they we. They found. Actually the fishermen found us and we went to their board and you know talking in a sign language and explained everything, begged them to take us to their. So this we said okay, we will surrender in you know, in your country. And they said don't know, don't do that. Then they gave us a proper map, professional map and enough water and more food and they even, they filled what you call diesel I think. Yeah. Then we had a GPS but the battery ran out in the second or fourth days. So they gave us new batteries and explained how to get into the Christmas Island. So again three four day journeys up journeys we reached Christmas island which is.
[00:12:58 - 00:13:00] Ilana: Where you were detained then.
[00:13:01 - 00:13:17] Kumar: Yeah, I stayed in Christmas island for three, four months. Then I got transferred to VIPA North Queensland where there is a camp, refugee camp called Shergar Detention center.
[00:13:20 - 00:13:22] Catherine: And it was a total of about 17 days.
[00:13:23 - 00:13:25] Kumar: Kumar for you 19 days.
[00:13:26 - 00:13:27] Catherine: Yeah, yeah.
[00:13:27 - 00:14:00] Kumar: By boat, no proper sleep. We are always yeah. Under fear, the great fear. Normally we do work and sleep backside and every night, the night time especially you can see the tides. It's. I can't imagine still it's so big and yeah every time I think you know it's going to crack our boat. That how it's. It was big.
[00:14:00 - 00:14:01] Ilana: That's how big the waves were.
[00:14:01 - 00:14:02] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:14:02 - 00:14:06] Ilana: Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.
[00:14:06 - 00:14:14] Kumar: And sometimes fully rainy. There is no any roof so we get all. Everyone got wet. Most of them got sick.
[00:14:16 - 00:14:29] Ilana: Thank you for sharing your story. Kuma. You then when you settled in Australia you then began working in the non for profit sector, supporting and helping other refugees.
[00:14:30 - 00:14:40] Kumar: Yeah, and yeah with the support of Catherine actually Catherine put me into that sector. I became a volunteer for Catherine.
[00:14:41 - 00:14:44] Catherine: And then you got work and then you studied.
[00:14:45 - 00:14:46] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:14:46 - 00:14:47] Catherine: So now you've got a few qualifications.
[00:14:50 - 00:14:56] Kumar: Yes, I did some diplomas and then finally a bachelor degree in community development.
[00:14:58 - 00:15:32] Ilana: That's fantastic. I wanted to ask what are some of the issues that are affecting refugees at the moment particularly how was the housing crisis which is on everyone's mind and has come up in discussions in the last couple of weeks of this show. As well. How is that affecting refugee and asylum seeker and migrant communities in Australia and in Victoria? Here in our Kingston Southeast region, which is where you both have been working and been involved.
[00:15:37 - 00:17:22] Kumar: Generally. For many refugees, especially in the early years of their settlement, finding a secure and affordable housing can be difficult. Particularly affect refugee communities. They often face challenges such as low English proficiency and cannot rely on Centrelink incomes due to their visa status, limited social support and lack of knowledge about securing houses. Many newly arrivals depends on their public transport inspect. You know, if they're applying for rental properties, they have to inspect the property. They also, they don't have any on car or vehicle, so they have to depend on the public transport and also they have to travel to the unfamiliar family area. Also providing required documents along with the rental property applications is big challenge for them as well, such as enough ID proof, income support, those kind of stuff because of the insufficient documents and real estate agents and landlords perspective on refugees make most of the applications unsuccessful. I used to work as a housing support worker and we had to submit hundred, hundred of application for each family to be successful. Sometimes the refugee family had to accept poor living standard and terrible housing conditions, as these were the only option they could get.
[00:17:25 - 00:18:07] Catherine: And sometimes, sorry, when Kumar would place a family or a number of men into a house, then I would then go in and meet the people and then we involve them in our refugee action program to assist them in. We'd run a number of sessions on, you know, the law in Australia, you know, where to go to to get assistance of any sort. But the houses that sometimes some of the refugees lived in, particularly if it was a couple of women with children, it was just appalling. I had one family there was. Remember the water tank in the ceiling, Kumar? And it was boiling and it just ran into the living room and there were children living there.
[00:18:07 - 00:18:12] Ilana: The hot water unit, still one of the 70s, up in the ceiling hot water units.
[00:18:13 - 00:18:51] Catherine: And this was in Dandenong, in central Dandenong. And it just. The hot water was just pouring down. They couldn't put the buckets out fast enough. No one would do anything to help them. And in the end it was just through getting onto the agents and almost threatening them, we all did it. And eventually they did come in and fix the hot water service. But those people had lived for months and months with boiling water pouring down from the roof. And that's just. We've had so many examples of that, didn't we, Kumar? Where the housing was deplorable.
[00:18:51 - 00:18:55] Ilana: Has that at all improved with the minimum rental standards that have come in.
[00:18:56 - 00:19:11] Catherine: I would say no. If you look at, well, kum. I remember we had a lot of the Tamil boys in houses in Dandenong. We'd have like eight to ten sometimes, you know, there'd be like three to four to a room. People lived in the lounge rooms.
[00:19:11 - 00:19:11] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:19:13 - 00:19:43] Catherine: You know, there was no such thing as a room of your own. And they didn't have work rights then, they couldn't study. We ran a lot of community classes in the English language and whatever else they needed but it was just terrible. They were. And then when they first arrived, especially in winter, they'd turn all the heating on. Then they got the bill and then they spent most of their time in bed because it was too expensive to turn the heating on.
[00:19:46 - 00:20:20] Kumar: I myself was a homeless as well. One stage, the earlier stage because I couldn't provide enough ID proof, you know, there are some point system also income support statements, the time I was working part time. So my application were, you know, not successful. I had to live in my car one or two months. I park in my friend's place at night and sleep in the car and the time in the morning I go and take a bath. It's. Yeah.
[00:20:21 - 00:20:25] Ilana: Are refugees eligible for the public housing lists at the moment?
[00:20:28 - 00:20:43] Kumar: It depends on the visa of the person. For example, if you come through UNHCR versus if you seek asylum, there are different type of support available. However, it's limited for everyone and a.
[00:20:43 - 00:21:00] Catherine: Lot of refugees, particularly if we look at Masmais community, the Burmese Muslim community, no one ever really knows when they were born or with the Afghanistan community, you know, they don't have a birth certificate. A lot of them don't know how old they are.
[00:21:00 - 00:21:18] Kumar: If you ask any afghan mostly, 90% of the afghan would say 31st of December, date of birth. So. Yeah, but it's one of the document ID document you have to submit in order to, you know, apply for a rental property or any other applications.
[00:21:20 - 00:21:27] Ilana: So what, what programs are out there at the moment? What support services are available to refugees experiencing homelessness?
[00:21:28 - 00:21:55] Kumar: There are a very wide range of state funded social services in Australia delivered across in the three levels of government. But like, you know, there are like launch housing, community housing, like what it called crisis accommodations.
[00:21:55 - 00:22:01] Catherine: There's one, yeah, yeah, the asrc Bridgetine.
[00:22:02 - 00:22:02] Kumar: Bridgetine.
[00:22:03 - 00:22:12] Catherine: They're pretty good but they're mainly faith based and they all rely on donations.
[00:22:13 - 00:22:32] Ilana: This is a good moment to mention the number for the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre. If anyone needs support, it's 039-326-6066. And if anything that we're discussing this evening is affecting you. The number for lifeline is 1311, 14.
[00:22:33 - 00:23:13] Catherine: But, Kumar, maybe we could talk about the visas that we had. The fast track system, which is the slowest system I've ever known of. But there are still men waiting who came at around about the same time that you did who still do not have a visa. And because they're not in the system, they haven't been processed or their visa is still being determined. They don't have access like people who've already had the Chev or any other visa. And now the new visa that's coming through, a lot of them have slipped through the cracks, don't you think? And they are homeless. It's years and years of waiting and.
[00:23:14 - 00:23:16] Kumar: Yeah, sorry, go ahead, please.
[00:23:16 - 00:23:18] Catherine: No, no, no, no, no, you. No, it's for you to talk.
[00:23:21 - 00:23:58] Kumar: Yeah. There are especially the people seeking asylum who are breaching visa. They are the people, you know, at high risk of becoming homeless or became homeless or high risk of becoming homeless because they don't know. They live like, you know, like kind of limpo. Most of my friends are the same background as me. Yeah. Most of them are on bridging visa. Even some of the boys who came with me in the same board on bridging visas.
[00:24:02 - 00:24:06] Ilana: They'Re still. They're still on a visa bridging visa.
[00:24:06 - 00:24:14] Kumar: Which, which you have to renew every six months. Yes. Sometime they wouldn't, you know, renew with work rights.
[00:24:17 - 00:24:20] Catherine: So there are some who don't have work rights at the moment.
[00:24:21 - 00:24:21] Kumar: Sorry.
[00:24:22 - 00:24:23] Catherine: There are still some who don't have.
[00:24:23 - 00:24:25] Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:24:25 - 00:24:29] Ilana: Who are unable to change their circumstance as a result.
[00:24:31 - 00:24:54] Kumar: Even one of my friend is. Who is living with me, he cannot get his Medicare card last 10 years. I don't know. There is some kind of bar on. On his board arrival. He couldn't renew it. First one year he was. Was given the Medicare, then he couldn't renew it. We made so many applications, inquiry and yeah, nothing worked.
[00:24:56 - 00:25:18] Catherine: And some, like some of the. The men who have shared your house, some have just fallen through the cracks as well because the, the pressure and it is psychological torture that they've lived through all these years. So do you want to talk about some of your. Yeah, yeah.
[00:25:18 - 00:25:33] Kumar: I'm coming back to the housing issue. Most of the, the people who are on bridging visa, they are not. Mostly they are not eligible for this kind of housing support services. They are not eligible at all.
[00:25:33 - 00:25:49] Ilana: Yeah, they're just Left to fall through the cracks there, then. Yeah, because the services that exist is. Is not even something that they can access. So your colleagues, Catherine, as I understand, are helping them on the streets of finding them on the streets?
[00:25:50 - 00:26:30] Catherine: Well, I think through launch housing and a number of other programs, they've been going out and working with homeless people who do live on the streets. But some of the other community members that we know have just fallen right through. You know, the tension and the. The self destruction has taken over. So it's really hard when people have gone through so much to get here and been in detention for that time. You have to be psychologically so strong to. Then you spend another 10 or more years wondering what your future's going to be and you can't even access housing.
[00:26:30 - 00:26:38] Ilana: Yeah. You worked on Manus Island, Catherine, and you described those facilities as compounds. What were the buildings like?
[00:26:40 - 00:28:44] Catherine: Some of them were fairly poor. Some of them were like just old weatherboard rooms where, you know, sometimes that would be an office. We worked in an old airport hangar. That was our office space. And we just had like the ground underneath our feet. It was so hot. It was like 40 degrees, 99% humidity every day. They did improve it after a while. When I got there, some of the accommodation was better, but the men there were like 40 to an area and they was like bed to bed. They had no privacy. Sometimes they'd use their sheets to, you know, put up just so that they could just get some sleep without having to watch people walking past all the time. The bathrooms were disgusting. The food they had. Well, Kuma, you would know this from being in detention, but on Manus, when, you know, it was just so hot, often there'd be dreadful crawly things in the food they were served because they had. People had to go to the mess at different times. If you got there late, there'd be no food left for you. It was really treating people like. Like animals in a way, wasn't it, Kumar? It was deplorable, but it was all. It was all done to torture people so they'd go back home. It was a. Was a very disciplined way of. And just the number of guards they had. Even if we went out, you know, everyone got wandered to get into the bus. If anyone had to go to another area, well, I suppose now they are put in handcuffs. And if they're just going to see a doctor or, you know, something, a meeting or whatever, especially even in Maitre, our detention centre in Murraybornong, that's how people are treated and have been treated.
[00:28:44 - 00:29:18] Kumar: Yeah, it's slowly, slowly the they transition into like a jail. I was there from 2013. I used to visit my friends and I. I stopped going in 2015, 16 because yeah, they made big walls and yeah, you can see the guards. I don't know before it was officers, but then you see the guards with handcuffs and guns. Pistols. Yeah, yeah.
[00:29:18 - 00:30:16] Catherine: And they had, you know, we had different types of security on Manos. We had. We had a local company and we had other men who were flown in, flown out in the big compound with 850 men. They weren't particularly good but I also worked at a low level security centre and. And most of our guards there were fantastic. You know, everyone worked together. Whereas in the big compound no one worked with you because it was determined to just the torture was so great and a lot of people did go home because they couldn't take it. If you're a troublemaker, you got put into Charlie compound. Yeah. So. And that was to put all the troublemakers together. So they didn't. In their own compounds, they didn't cause any trouble and activate riots or you know, disputes with their treatment for those.
[00:30:17 - 00:30:18] Kumar: Sorry.
[00:30:18 - 00:30:19] Ilana: Oh no, go, go for a kuma.
[00:30:20 - 00:30:26] Kumar: While I was in detonation, I most of the time lived in. In the market. Big Maki.
[00:30:26 - 00:30:26] Catherine: Yeah.
[00:30:26 - 00:30:36] Kumar: With. Among. With other 40 people. It's like there were three lines of beds including eight beds in row. Like the beds also double bed. Two people has to share.
[00:30:38 - 00:30:40] Ilana: When you say marquee, you mean a tent? Like a tent?
[00:30:40 - 00:30:41] Kumar: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:30:41 - 00:30:44] Ilana: Like a, Like a, like a festival marquee. Like a big tent.
[00:30:45 - 00:31:06] Catherine: That's where people ate on Manus. Or they had their recreation area. The compound. Well, the accommodation for their rooms they just had like single metal beds with a thin mattress and a sheet. And I don't know what you. Well, I didn't realize that you had to share a double bed in.
[00:31:06 - 00:31:13] Kumar: Yeah, yeah, we had to share that time period. Yeah, we had to share double. Two people in. Yeah, double beds. Those normally.
[00:31:13 - 00:31:13] Jarred: Yeah.
[00:31:13 - 00:31:25] Kumar: Even you know, when we buy move sometime later I move into container. The small, tiny. I don't know what's the name you mentioned. Yeah, it's like a small house. Yeah, yeah.
[00:31:25 - 00:31:26] Ilana: Like a side shed.
[00:31:26 - 00:31:34] Kumar: Yeah, it's like a 10 to 10 double bed. Still you have to share with another one. Just a small fridge and one cupboard. That's it.
[00:31:37 - 00:32:30] Ilana: More of the temporary style construction which I spoke to Jared about earlier this week. I sat down with Jarrod Turnbull who is well known in the local community and is the Publican and owner of Bo Gurk's Australian Craft Liquor Boutique in Edithvale. But most locals wouldn't know this about him, that he originally trained as a mechanic and was involved in the construction industry as a fly in, fly out worker for a decade. Jarrod spent three to four years in total working on Nauru as a health and gov. As a health and safety manager for Ocean Outback Contracting, a construction company who was engaged by the Australian government to build these offshore processing facilities, detention centers on the island. Let's have a listen to Jared. Really the first question I ask everyone is what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:32:31 - 00:32:59] Jarred: So you gave me the heads up about that. Thankfully I did have a really good think about that. And what I kept coming back to actually was when I was a kid marching around in the trenches of a house that hadn't been built yet, so they'd obviously dug the trenches for the foundations and I was in amongst those absolutely loving life until I got home covered in mud. My mum killed me. So that was my earliest memory based on what we sort of spoke about. But it was a construction site and.
[00:32:59 - 00:33:10] Ilana: You haven't hadn't left the site since until opening up Boguerk's, a really, really popular pizza and boutique, boutique liquor bar here in Edithvale.
[00:33:10 - 00:33:14] Jarred: Yeah, it does seem that way. My life certainly did follow a path of being in construction.
[00:33:14 - 00:33:29] Ilana: Yes. Which is where we're sitting right now, getting a bit of sunshine on us. And I'm just looking around here. You do the fit out yourself. You are a registered builder? Not registered anymore, no, no, no.
[00:33:29 - 00:33:46] Jarred: But I did certainly with the help of my niece. We did the majority of the fit out here at Boguerk's, which we're really proud of, using lots of recycled materials and lots of things that, you know, relate to the area, which is important to me to be able to relate to the area.
[00:33:47 - 00:33:49] Ilana: Lovely. It's very cozy, very nice in winter.
[00:33:49 - 00:33:50] Jarred: Thank you.
[00:33:51 - 00:34:02] Ilana: And you spend many years in construction. You spent almost a decade in doing FIFO work and about two to four years of those were spent on Nauru.
[00:34:03 - 00:34:04] Jarred: Yeah, that's correct.
[00:34:05 - 00:34:11] Ilana: Can you tell me a bit about what sort of buildings did you build there? What was the scope for construction, FIFO workers?
[00:34:12 - 00:34:58] Jarred: Yeah. Well, the scope was to obviously head out to Nauru there and build the detention centres, but that also included. So that was accommodation and there were obviously your administration buildings, recreation buildings, the laundries, all of the things required for these little villages, I suppose you would call them. They're all fairly basic sort of buildings. The sort that you would get, you know, use for temporary construction accommodation, generally that sort of fridge panel type material with an aluminium outer, corrugated outer, and then polystyrene or sort of insulation and then all your services running through that. So they're pretty basic and they're not designed to last long term, that's for sure.
[00:35:00 - 00:35:03] Ilana: And did you have to do much maintenance as well while you were out there?
[00:35:04 - 00:35:38] Jarred: Well, obviously the logistics of working out in the middle of the Pacific make things pretty difficult. So we certainly did. By the time we got our materials out there and then quite often there was quite a lot of rework. The environment itself, obviously on the equator there, it's extremely humid, so we had lots of problems with mould in the buildings. Having to strip out the interior of the buildings and redo them was pretty commonplace. So lots of rework and just I suppose ongoing issues resulting from the environment that they've been put into.
[00:35:38 - 00:35:49] Ilana: Yeah, and you mentioned this was more of a temporary style. So under, under the building code. How was that being assessed? How did they, they look at it?
[00:35:49 - 00:37:22] Jarred: Well, I like these buildings weren't put in place to be there forever is, you know, is essentially what they were there. They're much like temporary accommodation that miners use, FIFO in Western Australia. They're small single person dwellings is the way they're designed. And in the case of Nauru, there were some much bigger buildings. So they weren't like the Donga style accommodation where you might get four rooms in a pre made building. These were put together so they were constructed. But it was the same materials that you'd use for temporary accommodation and temporary buildings. So like your portable styles that used to for classrooms and things like that, that's the sort of accommodation it was. So yeah, lots of corrugated tin and really sort of basic fittings and finishings inside and outside the buildings. But they were serviceable as in they kept the rain off your head. Definitely. But in an environment like Nauru with 80 to 100% humidity, there were lots of issues. Obviously you need to have air conditioners running all the time. So yeah, there were certainly some challenges building out there with the heat and just the environment generally it's pretty arid, sort of rocky country in Nauru. But the, you know, I suppose the hardest part was probably getting materials that you needed because everything had to be shipped to site and so there was long lead times and obviously really expensive to build and the product at the end, for the cost, you know, you would. It was pretty hard to sort of look at the cost and think, you know, that the product was a really good one.
[00:37:22 - 00:37:32] Ilana: Yeah. And so you mentioned it had to be air conditioned all the time. So they were constantly on, Constantly running, mechanically ventilated spaces.
[00:37:33 - 00:37:42] Jarred: Yeah. So in order for the buildings to. Because of the high humidity, they had to be air conditioned otherwise. Yeah, we had lots of problems with mould forming.
[00:37:42 - 00:37:43] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:37:43 - 00:37:47] Jarred: And in some cases, we had to gut the buildings and redo them because of the mould.
[00:37:49 - 00:37:57] Ilana: Goodness, that's very tough. Anyone who's fought moulds in their home knows what a challenge that is. And once you've got mould, how hard it is to get rid of.
[00:37:58 - 00:38:18] Jarred: Yeah, it certainly was. So we basically gutted these buildings and redid them. So, you know, look, the tradesmen we had, and there was a large workforce from New Zealand involved out there, they did a fantastic job. You know, given the conditions, I think everyone did a really good job out there with. With what they had to work with.
[00:38:18 - 00:38:24] Ilana: And what sort of FIFO rotation would you be doing on a project like that? How long, how many days on, how many days off?
[00:38:25 - 00:39:03] Jarred: Yeah, most of the guys were doing sort of four weeks on, one week off. I was on sort of a 26 and 9 roster most of the time I was there. So by the time you're sort of flying, you know, out of the middle, you know, from the equator back to Melbourne, you know, you lose a day either side of that, so it's pretty tough, you know. And even living in that style of accommodation, you know, you're literally 100 mils from the bed next door to you. There might be a wall between you, but, you know, there's not a lot of room. And so you can hear everything that's going on in all of the rooms around you. So it's a pretty hard environment in that you've constantly got this sort of things going on around you that you need to deal with.
[00:39:03 - 00:39:06] Ilana: And not much acoustic separation, not much privacy.
[00:39:07 - 00:39:23] Jarred: No, not really, no. No, the rooms that we built, no, they were pretty good. But, yeah, if people were talking in the next room, you would hear those muffled voices, for sure. And anything like footsteps or knocking, banging, he'll hear very clearly.
[00:39:24 - 00:39:37] Ilana: MUFFLED HUM and what was the process on site? So the trades do the work and then there was qa that was also fifo, or the quality assurance personnel were on site full time.
[00:39:37 - 00:40:04] Jarred: Yeah, absolutely. So, obviously we had our plans that we were working to, but then there was, you know, quantity surveyors on site to make sure that they were. They were signing off on every step. Much the same way, I suppose that the building surveyor would work in Australia, but we more self regulating out there. Obviously we had to build to our own standard there. But there were QA on site to make sure that there was some oversight of how we were building to make sure we were meeting the standards required.
[00:40:04 - 00:40:07] Ilana: Yeah. And that the scope of the contract was completed.
[00:40:07 - 00:40:31] Jarred: Yeah. Well, that was obviously a bit of a moving bar out there as well at times because of the needs on the ground maybe were a little different to the plan's needs. So there had to be obviously some changes. Like any construction project though, you have to have a bit of flexibility in there to be able to do things the way they need to be done, rather than what the plan always says, which is it's a challenge between architects and. And the build up.
[00:40:31 - 00:40:54] Ilana: Yes, that can certainly come up. And with. With all construction as we know, there are unknowns. There are many unknowns, many surprises. Contingencies are very much for not if, but when you spend it. What are some of the really big surprises that came up? Did you ever find things below the soil that you weren't expecting or just other really surprise challenges with construction?
[00:40:57 - 00:41:43] Jarred: Yes, I suppose some of the. Some of the challenges. Well, the logistics were probably something that I hadn't had to deal with previously because of just, you know, there was a stage on one of the projects where the wharf actually became unstable so we couldn't land anything. So for a couple of months there we literally had no materials coming in. So that was a challenge that you wouldn't normally expect because, yeah, they were unable to bring the ship in with. With everything we needed. And I suppose that's the result of being out in the middle of the ocean and a long way from anywhere. Things like, yeah, sometimes materials on the site would go missing and that would result in huge delays and costs involved in trying to get things shipped in at short notice. If you had to fly things in, there was a huge cost.
[00:41:44 - 00:41:49] Ilana: Did you face any major climatic events that would delay construction at all or.
[00:41:49 - 00:43:03] Jarred: Well, there were certainly a couple of interesting ones you just reminded me of, so I forgot the name. But there was a certain type of mosquito that carries. It's like a dengue fever, but that was prevalent on the island as well. So there was a stage there where everyone was covering up in RID and other insecticides and they were spraying the island. And at certain times of the day we had to sort of be out of, not out of our buildings because there was exposure to these mosquitoes. I Forget the name of them. But yeah, things like that, which you can never plan for, I suppose. And yeah, just like the roads themselves around the island. So getting around the island was really difficult. We're using really old sort of cars that would certainly not be roadworthy in Australia but we were using those as construction vehicles on really rough roads. So there were some issues with those sort of things. The standard of health and safety, whilst we tried our very hardest to maintain that high standard that you would have in Australia, is a different standard out there in the middle of. In the middle of nowhere, I suppose you would call it. And look, the teams and everyone did a great job as far as trying to maintain the best standard they could. But yeah, it wasn't an ideal environment for construction, that's for sure.
[00:43:03 - 00:43:07] Ilana: It's probably a condition few people can imagine being in.
[00:43:07 - 00:43:42] Jarred: Yeah, well, certainly when you're talking about. Because there wasn't much variation in weather. So every day you're waking up and it's 30 plus degrees, 80% humidity, 80 to 90% humidity. So you're just sweaty all day long. So the guys are out there working in that sun and sweating and they're basically, they're just covered in sweat the whole day until they get into their donga at night or their single person accommodation and have a shower and chill out in the air conditioning. So you're just dealing with that hot, humid environment. It's just relentless and yeah, that was really difficult.
[00:43:43 - 00:43:46] Ilana: Were you involved in building some of the detention centre compounds as well?
[00:43:47 - 00:43:48] Jarred: We certainly were, yes.
[00:43:48 - 00:43:49] Ilana: How big were those?
[00:43:51 - 00:44:37] Jarred: They were. So there was some temporary accommodation to begin with at the start and it's sort of hard to put a figure on. On how many people that were accommodated in those sort of areas. I don't have that information. But you know, these were big villages designed to accommodate several hundred people. I would say that the permanent structures that we were building, the temporary accommodation to begin with is probably a bit less than that. It's hard to say. But yeah, definitely these were sizable structures with you know, maybe 100 rooms. I can't remember the exact sort of figures. Most of those rooms pretty small, sort of two by two by three. I suppose in some cases you'd have bunks in those rooms. But they were mostly designed for sort.
[00:44:37 - 00:44:42] Ilana: Of single people and all single story. I wouldn't imagine you had cranes out there or did you?
[00:44:42 - 00:44:44] Jarred: Oh no, no, we did. No. So they were, they were double story.
[00:44:44 - 00:44:45] Ilana: Double story?
[00:44:45 - 00:44:52] Jarred: Yeah, we were building them double stacked and yeah, there certainly was lots of crainage so the logistics out there were really difficult.
[00:44:52 - 00:44:53] Kumar: Yeah. Yep.
[00:44:53 - 00:45:05] Jarred: So even, you know, getting cranes out there had to be shipped out to the, to the island. Certainly the infrastructure on the island's pretty rudimentary so we didn't have much that we could use that was already there in place. We had to bring everything with us.
[00:45:05 - 00:45:07] Ilana: Incredibly, incredibly industrial.
[00:45:07 - 00:45:08] Jarred: Yes.
[00:45:08 - 00:45:13] Ilana: Well we're glad to have you back and glad to have you in Edith Vale running boguerks.
[00:45:13 - 00:45:26] Jarred: Thank you very much. It's certainly, it's, yeah, that's a part of my life that I look back on with some mixed feelings, there's no doubt about that. But yeah, it's really nice to be here in Edith Vale. I certainly love where I am these days.
[00:45:26 - 00:45:27] Ilana: Thank you so much for your time Jarrod.
[00:45:27 - 00:45:28] Jarred: It's my pleasure.
[00:45:30 - 00:46:17] Ilana: That was Jarrod Turnbull reflecting on a conversation we had earlier this week. His experience working on Nauru, a very, very difficult experience for everyone involved. And as I'm sitting here in the studio with Catherine Franklin who also mirrored some of these memories of heat, humidity and very temporary in their nature buildings on the island. And on the phone line I have Kumar Sinha joining us as well. How listening to that conversation with Jared. Catherine in Kumar, how does that mirror some of your experiences?
[00:46:21 - 00:48:59] Catherine: Very similar. There was always building going on. Luckily on Manos we had a really good port so we didn't have the hold up with materials coming in. But it was the relentless heat which. And the men didn't have air conditioning. You know, you had eight hundred and fifty men in like they were in like 250 in a compound and then the bad ones were in a different compound. So I think it was. Some of them wouldn't wait till 11, 12 o'. Clock. It was just too hard to get up, you know. And some of the workers there would choose to do a later shift. They would work say 3 o' clock till 11 o' clock at night because at least when it was dark there was a bit of a breeze. I can remember just being wet through the whole time and you'd wash your clothes and they'd never dry so you just put them on wet and then they dried really fast on your body because it was so hot. I didn't think. But we had these awful nylony long sleeved tops and cargo pants and steel cap boots with socks and oh my God, it was just so hot. It was really. It was a very difficult environment to be in. But you know, I suppose we tried to think about, you know, at least we could Go home. Whereas the refugees on the island, they didn't get a chance unless they voluntarily decided they would go home to an unknown future. We had, you know, a lot of documentation from refugees who went back to Sri Lanka and, you know, the police would meet them when they got to the airport, so. And the same in Iran, Iraq, many, many countries, especially Bangladeshis or Rohingya people, you know, who weren't. Especially the Rohingyas, they weren't welcome in any country. So that made it really difficult. You know, housing for them was such an issue. But one of the good parts I did have, I was on the local committee for. Was the annual celebration of Manus was their Independence Day. So we'd have a big event in the local football oval and I used to run events and we'd bring in, you know, we take a week to build all these marquees and everything, and they would just go to the jungle and they'd get out. So some of the goods that you used, Kumar, you know, like the coconut leaves and everything, and they just build all these little marquees.
[00:49:00 - 00:49:00] Kumar: Yeah.
[00:49:00 - 00:49:09] Catherine: And, you know, and you'd have these beautiful roofs and. Oh, my God, I loved it. It was so easy. And so, yeah, it was amazing.
[00:49:10 - 00:49:20] Ilana: Searching for that joy amongst the difficulty. Yeah, that's the real human spirit, isn't it? No matter how hard these circumstances can be, that people still search for that light.
[00:49:20 - 00:49:21] Catherine: Yeah.
[00:49:21 - 00:49:22] Ilana: That hope.
[00:49:22 - 00:50:30] Catherine: And I did work with a school that was. They always said it's, you know, it's up the highway. There was, like, only one road in and out and they didn't have any power. The electricity went up half the highway and then they just stopped. And then. So I would go and meet with the school and we'd organise all sorts of activities and the men would go and help build. The kids would teach the men how to build walls for the school, because they were all built, you know, thatched huts type thing. And that was pretty amazing. They had. The principal had a phone that no one would ever want now, but it was like the first phone, and they had one solar panel to charge it. But whenever I arrived, they would drum to let. Because there were no phones or anything. So they would drum and then the whole village would all come in knowing that I'd arrived with the refugees to play sport or go to the school and teach a class on, you know, culture, geography, all sorts of things. So, you know, we really worked hard on integration and learning what products they could use. Just straight from the jungle.
[00:50:30 - 00:50:31] Ilana: Yeah, amazing.
[00:50:32 - 00:50:32] Catherine: Yeah.
[00:50:33 - 00:50:37] Ilana: And this was when People weren't forced to walk around in handcuffs, they were.
[00:50:38 - 00:50:50] Catherine: Well we did have a low level security centre and from the other, from the big centre, once they got refugee status they were allowed to come out on excursions so we would take them as well.
[00:50:51 - 00:50:56] Ilana: That's fantastic and really important work giving people hope and connection and just learning.
[00:50:56 - 00:51:06] Catherine: Skills in how to manage and what to do, what to cook. If they ever found themselves lost in a jungle, they, you know, they knew basic skills.
[00:51:07 - 00:51:24] Ilana: What are some of the projects that we may see in the future to help refugees in Victoria? Particularly to address the surgeon need for housing and what's on the horizon? What are we looking to for hope at the moment?
[00:51:25 - 00:51:26] Catherine: Kumar.
[00:51:28 - 00:52:58] Kumar: I have to tell this. Refugee communities often support each other with housing. They help their friends and relatives to find places and sometimes they let each other sleep on couches or in, in their spare rooms. Another what? Another great group is Rural Australian for Refugees, Grandmother for Refugees and Brigitte Sisters. These group find and secure housing for vulnerable refugees around Victoria. They are very, very selfless and active in their local communities. As I live in Dandenong area, I found another initiative exit such as the Dandenong Council established an asylum seeking refugee advisory community a few years back. They have innovative approaches to improve the accessibility to short and long term housing option for refugees. It is part of their action plan. What I think we need to change the way of housing, you know, is seen in Australia first. It should be, it should be a human right, not an, you know, not a proof investment. Yeah, privilege or investment property housing first. We need to like tax free, form more affordable housing and greater renders free rights. Yeah, that's what I think.
[00:52:58 - 00:53:49] Ilana: It's really the fundamental need underpinning all other success and opportunity in life. Once people have stable, safe, warm, secure housing then they can access work, education, improve their health, relationships, well being. But until we get that fundamental need right, we are letting so many people down in our communities across so many demographics. And tonight we've heard particularly about how refugee and asylum seeker communities end up falling through the cracks in an already very difficult circumstance. What can listeners do to help? If anyone's particularly interested in getting involved and supporting communities, people who are interested in this topic.
[00:53:52 - 00:54:34] Catherine: I'd say lobby your local members for social housing. I know that we've just had, you know, the pledge of $2 billion for social housing which will be rolled out I think over a couple of years, but we need that, you know, 2 billion now, not in the future. And you know, it really needs to be, be Opened up to more people because some people can't get on the public housing list because they don't have pr so they can't get into that system. And it's a 10 year waiting list for public housing. So that's not an option for many people. Especially if you don't have a visa at the moment.
[00:54:35 - 00:54:59] Kumar: And if you are a landlord, it's important not to immediately any, you know, tenants based on their background or temporary visa status and maybe it's kind of requested. If you have a spare room or tiny house in backyard or in old caravan, it would be great to consider to rent it to a refugee.
[00:55:01 - 00:55:29] Ilana: Are there any community networks that people should contact specifically if they haven't thought about putting their caravan or tiny house or granny flat? Some of these more temporary but very much emergency because it is an emergency situation for many. If people have these options that they would like to support refugees and offer them, which community group should they get in contact if they want to rent out their granny flat or for their granny flat, for example?
[00:55:31 - 00:55:47] Catherine: Probably launch housing is doing amazing work. The same as, I mean the asrc. They do provide some temporary accommodation until other accommodation can be found. I think Ames is still doing.
[00:55:48 - 00:55:50] Kumar: Yeah, aims doing and vase.
[00:55:51 - 00:55:53] Catherine: Yeah, opening doors.
[00:55:53 - 00:56:08] Kumar: There is a program and some are registered, some private, you know, landlords registered with the local councils as a crisis or, you know, it's community accommodation kind of. Yeah, yeah.
[00:56:08 - 00:56:41] Catherine: And we did have a program called I have a Room where you know, people pledged that if people refugees could come from Manos and Nauru then they would offer them a room. There's a big group of advocates for refugees who all will do that. So there's a lot of activist groups. You know, there's Refugee Action Collective, there's heaps and heaps, but I suppose who else is working heavily in that sector around the southeast area? Kumar.
[00:56:45 - 00:57:11] Ilana: Yeah, sounds like there's a number of organizations that listeners can get in touch with. If you've missed some of those in the list, you can replay this episode when it'll be podcasted by Radio Karam out on all of your favorite podcast platforms, wherever you get your media and follow up, if that is of interest to you. A final question to you both. What gives you hope?
[00:57:16 - 00:57:17] Kumar: Actually.
[00:57:19 - 00:57:19] Catherine: We have hope.
[00:57:21 - 00:57:45] Kumar: It's difficult to have hope at this time. As you know, the economic crisis and the inflation driven by the corporate group and companies is making lives very difficult. And yeah, we need to have some progress, progressive ideas and policies to make to ensure we can build a society that meets the needs of human beings.
[00:57:46 - 00:58:14] Ilana: That's a very good final note to end on, Kumar. Well, we thank you both for your work, for your efforts, for your advocacy, and most importantly, for sharing your story with us all tonight. If anything that's come up on the show has been difficult for you, you can contact Lifeline on 13 11 14, or if you need some immediate assistance, the Asylum Seeker Resource Center number is 03 9326606. Thank you so much.
[00:58:16 - 00:58:16] Kumar: Thank you.
[00:58:16 - 00:58:17] Catherine: Thank you.
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parkour public space play movement mapping melbourne

4 | June 28, 2023

Ale Prunotto & Kel Glaister on parkour & play in public space

Ale Prunotto is a writer and researcher with a background in anthropology. They are an active member of Naarm's parkour community, which informs their thinking and artistic practice. At present, Ale is writing a narrative non-fiction book about experiences of women and trans* people who do parkour, which explores the intersection of public space, movement, play and gender. Ale also works part-time at String Theory, a small organisation that does participatory evaluation and research for community programs.

Kel Glaister is a PhD candidate in Design at RMIT, with a focus on parkour vision and playable urban spaces. Kel has been coaching parkour; active in advocacy and in national level governance of parkour, internationally for the last decade. She is a founding director of Melbourne in Motion, a parkour and movement-coaching organisation with a focus on access, diversity and justice. Kel is a founding member of Queer Parkour, an international advocacy hub for LGBTQIA+ parkour practitioners. With a Masters of Fine Arts from the Glasgow School of Art, Kel has exhibited as an artist and a curator internationally.

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Ale Prunotto & Kel Glaister on parkour & play in public space
[00:00:17 00:01:13] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
[00:01:29 - 00:01:33] Radio Architecture Intro Theme
[00:01:37 - 00:01:43] Ilana: Good evening from beautiful Bunurong Country and welcome back for another evening of Radio.
[00:01:43 - 00:01:45] Ilana: Architecture with Ilana Razbash.
[00:01:46 - 00:02:00] Ilana: Tonight rounds off the first month of my conversations live on Radio Carrum. Time absolutely flies when you're having fun, and in the last month we've covered a number of really broad yet foundational topics. Thank you so much for joining mealong on this ride.
[00:02:01 - 00:02:05] Ilana: Thank you and in particular to my regular listeners who have tuned in again.
[00:02:05 - 00:02:07] Ilana: Tonight for the live show.
[00:02:08 - 00:04:30] Ilana: Discussions on Public Space continue this evening with two guests who are joining me live in the studio, both of whom are very experienced speakers, presenters and facilitators. Kel Glaister is a PhD candidate in design at RMIT University with a focus on parkour vision and playable urban spaces. Kel has been coaching parkour in Australia and internationally for the last decade. She has been involved in national level governance as a committee member and Victorian representative on the Australian Parkour association and the Chair of Roots of Movement Scotland and is a current Ambassador for Parkour Earth. Kel has worked for many years to help dismantle gender bias and improve diversity in parkour with several community organisations including Women of Melbourne Parkour and Glasgow Parkour Girls and through organising gender minority focused events. She is a founding Director of Melbourne in Motion, a parkour and movement coaching organisation with a focus on access, diversity and justice. Kel is a founding member of Queer Parkour, an international organization for LGBTQIA parkour practitioners. Kel has a Masters of Fine Arts from the Glasgow School of Art and has exhibited as an artist and a curator internationally. She has undertaken several artists and residencies around the world including at the Gertrude Contemporary in Melbourne, the ACC Weimar and the site Internale des Arts Paris. Alain Prunotto is a writer and researcher with a background in anthropology. They are an active member of Naarm's parkour community which informs their thinking and artistic practice. At present, Alai is writing a narrative non fiction book about experiences of women and trans people who do parkour which explores the intersection of public space, movement, play and gender. Ale also Works part time at String Theory, a small organisation that does participatory evaluation and research for community programs. ALE was also instrumental in implementing the Victorian parkour map.
[00:04:31 - 00:04:34] Ilana: Welcome and thank you so much to you both for being on the show tonight.
[00:04:34 - 00:04:35] Kel: Thanks for having us.
[00:04:35 - 00:04:36] Ale: Thanks, Ilana.
[00:04:37 - 00:04:49] Ilana: So excited to chat. You're probably by now a month in. Everyone's ready for the first question, but I'll throw it to you first. Alex, what is your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:04:51 - 00:05:45] Ale: So it would have to be my. The first house that I grew up in in Johannesburg, South Africa, it was a brick, a rendered brick white house. And I remember playing in the garden, but the kind of behind some rocks and ferns, but up against this quite high brick wall with barbed wire electric fence on top. So I remember the space inside the garden surrounded by this wall. And I also remember the contrast when we moved to Australia when I was about five and we had no fence in our front yard. We'd play in the front yard and there'd be no fence at all, just go straight onto the street. So, yeah, that was.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:51] Ilana: That was my first memory, that contrast between a gated community and Australian suburbia. Is that right?
[00:05:52 - 00:05:53] Ale: Yeah, yeah, that would be it.
[00:05:55 - 00:06:12] Ilana: I'm sure that was a really different experience of the relationships we have with the public realm and the sense of what's allowed, what's not allowed, who's welcome, who's not welcome. Yeah, for sure. Those experiences. How about you, Kel? What's your earliest memory of building your place?
[00:06:13 - 00:07:16] Kel: Mine is we discussed this before, also about a fence, but I have to preface this story by saying no children were harmed. But my earliest memory, I think, is when I was in kindergarten. It's of the fence between the kindergarten I went to, which was across the road from a creche. And I remember talking with my friend Thuy at playtime in kindergarten. We didn't know what a creche was. Somehow we together decided that a creche meant a kindergarten but for rich kids. And so the creche was exactly the same, but they had better toys and better play equipment. So then I remember we decided to stage like a kindergarten class war by picking up sticks and bits of tambark and throwing them over the fence at the crash. But it was over a road, so we didn't hit them. We didn't get anywhere near them. The worst that happened was maybe some passersby got hit by Tanmark. So, yeah, my memory is of a.
[00:07:16 - 00:07:30] Ilana: Fence also seeking to claim back space, wanting to challenge space, challenging fences and boundaries. And you seem to be climbing fences ever since.
[00:07:30 - 00:07:31] Kel: Really?
[00:07:31 - 00:07:35] Ilana: Since that moment, you're both parkour practitioners.
[00:07:35 - 00:07:35] Kel: Yep, that's right.
[00:07:35 - 00:07:40] Ilana: And I'm sure the listeners are dying to know, what is parkour? Yeah.
[00:07:40 - 00:08:32] Kel: This is a question that is more difficult for parkour practitioners than it probably by rights, should be. But parkour is a discipline of moving through any given terrain using only a body. So sometimes formulated as taking the most efficient path from A to B, where those two are any given points in a space, practically, that will mean moving across usually urban terrains, but natural as well, using movements like jumping, vaulting, climbing. And for the radio listeners, the most common media touchstone is the opening sequence of Casino Royale, the Bond movie. So that might be familiar, but, yeah, it's a movement through space in the most efficient way possible. And training to achieve that.
[00:08:33 - 00:08:39] Ilana: Thank you. Is your definition the same ale since there's so many facets?
[00:08:40 - 00:08:40] Kel: Yeah.
[00:08:40 - 00:09:26] Ale: Well, I think I would add to it maybe. Yeah. I was actually thinking about this the other day, and I feel like I'm doing parkour the most when I'm moving through space, but I'm following my curiosity and, you know, if I see a curb and I want to balance along the curb, then I go and balance along the curb. Or, you know, if I want to, I want to play on a bench and I want to just see what it feels like to jump up on it or, you know, kind of do a little tiny cartwheel over the end of it, then I'll try that. And so that's what parkour feels like to me is like following that curiosity, regardless of whether there's that little voice in my head that that's saying, oh, no, don't do that.
[00:09:26 - 00:09:26] Ilana: What.
[00:09:26 - 00:09:30] Ale: What will people think of that? Yeah, that's what I would add.
[00:09:30 - 00:10:02] Ilana: A liberation and a freedom in the practice. That's really interesting that you say you follow your curiosity. A couple of weeks ago, with Rachel Jampolsky, we touched on the practice of the derive Derive, where you move through a city and follow your curiosity. This is a playful, joyous expression. Really? In how many ways do you think it's hanging on to senses of childhood, what maybe children do naturally to play, and then to encourage adults and older people, as I've seen from your classes, to also practice parkour.
[00:10:03 - 00:10:57] Kel: Yeah, it's a very good point, because parkour as a discipline has a lot of communities around the world and links to the name or the noun of parkour, or Art de Plasmore, free running. There are other names for similar disciplines, but at essence, it is Continuing what humans do and humans have always done, which is play in the space that is available to them. Unfortunately, there comes a point where most of us feel discouraged, either by design or by our behaviour being impeded or being told off that playing isn't what you do anymore. Playing isn't for adults. And yeah, we're doing everything we can to overcome that, to encourage people to find ways to play in public space in the cities that belong to them.
[00:10:57 - 00:11:10] Ilana: What are some of the spatial elements, the built elements, or the things in our physical environment that a parkour practitioner might look at and think, yes, that's fantastic, I want to get on that. What are some of these things you look out for?
[00:11:11 - 00:12:02] Kel: Handrails is always good. Ale and I arrived here early for the show and we're very excited by the handrails and some of the small steps at the front of the building here. So handrails, any changes in levels, things that you can climb on top of or get over, it really depends on what you want to do and your level. So I think you can do parkour literally anywhere. You don't need to have a purpose built space, you don't need to have certain elements to do it. And if you didn't have any thing at all, it would probably take the form of either running or ground based play.
[00:12:05 - 00:12:17] Kel: Yeah, you look for things that, like Ale said, spark curiosity and that changes as you grow. I don't know. What do you. What, what's. What do you look for these days, Ali?
[00:12:17 - 00:13:04] Ale: Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah, we were kind of talking about it when we were. We were analyzing the, the arrangement of the, the rails and the ramp and the steps outside the. This, the footy pavilion this evening. And yeah, I think often it's really interesting when there's some typical types of infrastructure that are standard, like a handrail and a ramp combined with some stairs, but then arranged in a particular distance that's not too far and not too close, so that you can. It allows for fluid movement between the different elements and you can kind of move in different directions.
[00:13:04 - 00:13:14] Ilana: There's a search for an elegance there, isn't it as well, on some level, you're after us in flow. It's not just hopping and jumping around. There's an execution to it.
[00:13:14 - 00:13:43] Ale: Yeah, I suppose if you're looking to create a line which is like stringing together something, certain movements in a fluid way, that's definitely what you're looking for. But I suppose parkour can have so many manifestations. Like a lot of our parkour is Just trying to find challenges, like ridiculous challenges, like can you hop along this rail on one foot while.
[00:13:43 - 00:13:49] Kel: Yeah. Can you find the smallest possible space you can pass through efficiently? Yeah.
[00:13:49 - 00:13:50] Ale: Then we all try and do that one challenge.
[00:13:51 - 00:13:55] Ilana: There's a group training, There's a big social community aspect.
[00:13:55 - 00:15:09] Kel: Absolutely. And that's where the best challenges come from. Because you are then forced to see, not forced to, but you're then encouraged, supported, have the opportunity to see the way another person takes on the same challenge, given the differences in their body, their body size, composition, level of experience, whatnot. And so I am tall, large person, so there's some things that I will just put my hand up and I can reach. And then there'll be training with someone who's significantly smaller than me. They have to then come up with another way to do exactly the same thing that suits their body and that will be entirely different. And then obviously, by the same token, if we do a pass through a small space challenge, I'm screwed. I have to like. So when you're training in a group, it does really allow you to see a city and the built environment and the way things are pitched and leveled from someone else's perspective.
[00:15:09 - 00:15:12] Ilana: In my opinion, a more empathetic experience.
[00:15:12 - 00:15:13] Kel: Yeah.
[00:15:13 - 00:15:15] Ilana: More democratized experience, too.
[00:15:16 - 00:15:17] Kel: 100%.
[00:15:17 - 00:15:30] Ilana: There's probably been a lot of spaces where you've wanted to train and haven't been able to or have been moved along from perhaps. What. What are some of those experiences with the. The right to occupy space?
[00:15:31 - 00:16:50] Kel: Yeah, it's. There are several spaces that I can think of off the top of my head where, yeah, we're asked to leave. The general approach is often to just do that. I have stated my case as to why I shouldn't a couple of times, but yeah, there's a lot of reticence for you to visibly do something that seems weird on behalf of other people. So something as simple as balancing on a rail suddenly becomes a threat to people, especially security guards, who are suddenly concerned that I will hurt myself or that I will, you know, cause damage or something. Neither of those are likely to happen in that case. But yeah, we're often asked to move on from places like, sorry, universities, often squares that look public but turn out to not be. So there's a lot of spaces around that I think purposely created to kind of muddy the waters as to how.
[00:16:51 - 00:16:56] Ilana: Allowed to blur the boundaries between public, private. A little bit.
[00:16:56 - 00:17:26] Kel: Yeah, yeah. And that can be difficult because. Because as I said, everyone should have the right and should be encouraged to play and Rest and engage with public space. But if, if it is not easy to tell what is actually public space, that makes things much more difficult and it, it probably leads to a lot more self policing of behavior because. Yeah, how would you know?
[00:17:27 - 00:17:44] Ilana: How would you know? So you've created the Victorian parkour map almost for that reason, to help locate these places, to help cite the locations and is broad. It's not just Melbourne, isn't it Arleigh? It's quite an expansive section survey.
[00:17:44 - 00:18:58] Ale: Yeah, well we have Melbourne Community has connections with the community in Bendigo and Geelong as well. So yeah, during the lockdowns when we started the project, we were doing it all online. We were contributing. The community was contributing to the map online. We were doing zoom sessions or people were doing it in their own time. And so yeah, we decided to make it a Victoria wide map and everyone was contributing spots that were in their local areas, especially in Melbourne because we couldn't move out of a 5k zone for so many months. So people were taking the opportunity to explore their suburbs which. Yeah, I know in my case there were lots of spots that I hadn't been to because I had always gone into the CBD to train because that was the most convenient place to meet other people to train with. So it kind of compelled me to go and explore my own suburb and yeah, had a lot of fun in dark, dingy car parks where there weren't a lot of people around because it was Covid.
[00:18:58 - 00:20:12] Ilana: Yeah. What an amazing way to crowdsource data and also connect to community when you couldn't train together and people had to invent new ways to train and use a dining room chair as an apparatus instead. I've seen a couple of demonstration videos like that. So what are some of the fields and criteria that you applied to the map? What sort of information is in there? Because these democratized mapping projects, of which there's many, some are very famous, like querying the map or some of the work by xyxlab. There's a number of feminist mapping projects out there that really look at a city differently by virtue of who made the map. And all maps carry biases. And so you've added these really thorough additional layers of Data that transcend TripAdvisor in a way. It's not a shallow. Come look at this. It's not a shallow. Do this. It's very, very thorough. So could you tell us some more about what are some of the fields and inputs and how was the criteria around this project decided?
[00:20:13 - 00:22:31] Ale: Yeah, so there were a group of us who were quite involved in designing these things. And we came up with a few criteria that we thought were really important, which included just basic information about what was there. And then some. Some of the kinds of movements that were. That the spot might be good for if you were looking to train a particular movement, particular parkour movement, like a vault or a jump or a climbing movement. But then we also wanted to include information on safety and accessibility as well. So we left that open for people to interpret how they. They needed to. For whatever spot that they were, they were adding to the map. But they were. They. Some of the entries included things like, I suppose, more physical things like if there was a rail that was shaky to watch out for, but then also more so things that might be seen as dangerous from a. From a more social perspective. So, you know, if the. If the area was really dark at nighttime or there wasn't passive visibility, for instance, if it was around a corner, but if it was in a place that was well lit at night or it was near a pedestrian thoroughfare, then they would put that information in so that people could make a decision about whether they wanted to train there if they felt comfortable, and whether they would maybe rather train in the day rather than at nighttime. So safety and then also accessibility, which was also open to interpretation. But yeah, people would include things like was it kind of accessible? Like was it flat ground or was it. Were there bumpy surfaces? Or also for people who had sensory overload, like, was it. Was it a very noisy place? Was it very busy? Is there lots of people around? Is it very bright in summer? Is it like white, white concrete that might reflect sun? Was it very noisy around there? So, yeah, these were some of the kinds of things.
[00:22:31 - 00:22:32] Ilana: Fantastic.
[00:22:32 - 00:22:33] Ale: Do you remember if there are any more, Kel?
[00:22:34 - 00:23:13] Ilana: It's a really empowering data set from my perspective, because few sports give people that ability to make their own decisions for what's right for them, what's right for their bodies, what's right for their level of risk or skill or safety they're willing to assume in the juggler consequences. I did have a look at the map and I noticed that you also have a criteria for nighttime spots, especially like a separate colored icon. And there's a couple of spots around this part of town, the Ballon Parkour park, it's quite purpose built. And a few other spots near the Frankston Arts Centre and the Frankston Library. And maybe you'll add one more after this evening's visit.
[00:23:13 - 00:23:14] Kel: Absolutely.
[00:23:14 - 00:23:38] Ilana: As well to the Roy Dawe Pavilion, which is where Radio Karam studios are located. By the way, if you want to contribute anything to our conversation tonight or ask any questions of Ale or Kel, you can text The Studio on 04-932-13831 and would love to read your question out on the air. What do you think about purpose built facilities for parkour?
[00:23:39 - 00:24:03] Kel: It's a fraught question for a lot of people. On the one hand, I think there are loads of fun and Balham park is an example of an incredibly fun place to train and to especially with children to to go and explore and play. On the other hand, there is potential.
[00:24:05 - 00:24:06] Ilana: For.
[00:24:07 - 00:25:46] Kel: Purpose built parkour parks to be, you know, perhaps a force for bad in this. If we think about it as a fight for public space. There is maybe, pardon me, it's previously been compared to street skating in that in the 80s when street skating was a lot bigger than it is now and around then I suppose it might have even been earlier whenever council started building skate parks, there was then somewhat of a backlash against street skaters where it was like councils or people would say why are you still skating on the street? We built a park for you. Why don't you go to the park? And that is essentially taking away public space for recreation because you've provided another resource for another place. It's cauterizing that form of play to the territory that you've been marked out for the weirdos to go to. And that's potentially problematic if that does happen to parkour because not only is the discipline about play and curiosity and exploring what your body can do, it's specifically about doing that in public space, in urban space, in the place that you live and if that. So while I think that there are many fantastic built parkour parks and would love to see more, we also have to make sure that we don't turn our back on the other front, as it were, if that makes sense.
[00:25:46 - 00:26:00] Ilana: Absolutely. You've got to be visible and be present and continue engaging with what you want to see more of. That's perhaps a little bit hyperbolic, but the price of safety is eternal vigilance.
[00:26:02 - 00:26:43] Kel: Yeah. I think also the other another way that parkour parks somewhat problematic and again, I do love playing in them, but I don't think we need purpose built parkour parks. I think what we need to do is build in the sort of interstices of every street, something that we can play on and essentially weave through the fabric of the entire city these opportunities for movement and play in whatever form that might be, including parkour. Rather than saying, this is the place where you play, this is the place where you work, this is the place where you live, and only putting roads.
[00:26:43 - 00:27:52] Ilana: Between those three things and ring fencing the activities where you want them. So that really doesn't make for a whole and joyous life. There's so much science and information coming to us now about the importance of regular incidentary movement and play. Enjoy. Not limiting that to children or then policing children as well, for trampling along at Balustrade, but when I think about some of this infrastructure and if we did integrate it into our cities and our urban realms a bit more, not just pretty traffic, bottle arts, which we're seeing more and more of, has become an unfortunate necessity in our modern world. And the city of Melbourne has made some of them look really excellent and put planters in and detailed the blue stone nicely. But that's a parkour object. That's also a seat for someone who needs it. That's also a rest point. That's an observation point for someone short in a crowd, wants to see fireworks at a festival. And it's about perhaps seeing the multitudes of what's available to us in our urban realm.
[00:27:53 - 00:28:40] Kel: I think so, because, as you said, things that are. That are amenable to play or are playable are also fantastic for rest, which is another thing that we don't have enough space for in public space. And they're useful for meeting and they're useful for parkour, but other sorts of movement in public space, other forms of play, and I would like to see more of that stuff built that is. That is multipurpose and for the future, especially, because when it comes to even things like playgrounds, they tend to circumscribe what you can do in them, what children can do in them. And instead, if we have things that are much more open, then the people can make of it what they will.
[00:28:42 - 00:28:52] Ilana: And for all ages. So that's perhaps a good moment to ask about the classes that Melbourne in Motion does, including for older people.
[00:28:53 - 00:28:53] Kel: Absolutely.
[00:28:53 - 00:28:56] Ilana: What's your. Who's your oldest parkour practitioner?
[00:28:56 - 00:29:09] Kel: Eileen was 84 when we were training together. Haven't trained with Eileen in a while, but yeah, there's no upper age limit. There's no. Well, I was going to say there's no lower age limit, but there's probably a lower age where it is indistinguishable.
[00:29:09 - 00:29:11] Ilana: From being a toddler.
[00:29:11 - 00:29:12] Kel: Being a toddler.
[00:29:12 - 00:29:12] Ilana: So.
[00:29:12 - 00:29:12] Kel: Yeah.
[00:29:12 - 00:29:15] Ilana: But 84 and incredibly strong.
[00:29:15 - 00:29:33] Kel: Yeah, absolutely. And it is a real problem that parkour is seen as. And many Many other disciplines are seen as something that you're not supposed to do unless you're, you know, 14 year old white boy. And that is the furthest from the truth.
[00:29:33 - 00:29:51] Ilana: And that's what you get when you plug it into Google. Unfortunately, I actually typed in Ballon Parkour park and that's what I got. 14 year old boys, 2016 video, the height of the Internet. But that's not it. You've got an amazing group, you've got really big regular weekly turnouts, you've got regular classes.
[00:29:52 - 00:29:58] Kel: It is a fantastic way for a lot of people to come to Parkour when maybe they are feeling a little.
[00:29:58 - 00:29:58] Ilana: Bit.
[00:30:00 - 00:30:42] Kel: Intimidated by its public image or by this idea that it is only for young people, it's only for people of a certain gender. Just going out and experimenting is a fantastic way to get into Parkour, but sometimes that's a bridge too far. And we run classes and recommend classes also because we can give you a lot of safety tips and a lot of easier ways to do things. But being able to come to a class, especially one that is for beginners or for a particular age group, just makes that first step so much easier. And the first step is the hardest, I think. So, yeah.
[00:30:42 - 00:30:51] Ilana: Ali, you're writing a book at the moment. What, what are the barriers that you've identified for people's participation in Parkour so far?
[00:30:54 - 00:31:04] Ale: Well, the book itself doesn't focus so much on the barriers, but I suppose part of the reason why I want to write the book is because I've noticed that barriers.
[00:31:04 - 00:31:04] Ilana: So.
[00:31:05 - 00:32:22] Ale: So the book is focused on experience, experiences of women and gender minorities, including trans and non binary people who do parkour. And what I noticed when I started Parkour is that when I looked at it on the Internet or on Instagram or any videos about it, when I looked for written materials like books and articles, most of it was focused on CIS men and it didn't line up with the community that I entered. And yeah, in Melbourne, there's quite a lot of diversity in terms of gender. And yeah, I noticed how much of an influence it had on my own sense of self and my own comfort in my body and my own confidence. And I could also start to notice that for other people around me as well. And so I thought, oh, there's something here that I think could be explored and that I think more people should know about. That Paco is more than this stereotype that is so pervasive. And I think that if more people knew.
[00:32:25 - 00:32:26] Kel: The.
[00:32:26 - 00:32:51] Ale: Yeah. What it, what it can be like to do parkour and. And how doing parkour has the potential to change so many aspects of your life that all interrelate because you're your body and your body does everything, you know, so, yeah, when I kind of wanted. Want people to be aware, you know, there's. There's more to. Paco. Thank you. Than what it might seem if you just look at the media.
[00:32:51 - 00:34:10] Ilana: Well, I really look forward to reading your book. Sounds like there'll be some interesting tales of the opportunities for liberation through parkour. But I'm also always really interested in these stories of interconnection and really complicated webs of inextricable interconnection and how everything ties together and sometimes that. Kel, you describe weirdos, but really not, you know, really highly educated people with an interest in the urban realm who are brave enough to be active in public, which I don't know how we got to a place in society that became radical. That and resting has become radical, a radical act to claim space in public. But to see those threads come out will be really interesting. Your work is also, in many ways, an act of resistance. And I know, Kel, you're a vehement advocate against fitness culture. And I'm mindful of the meta kind of qualities here because, you know, this conversation, after it's broadcast live, will be podcasted out and people will listen to it on podcast, and then maybe I'll make a reel or something, and then that might come up in someone's feed right after a Muslim man yelling at his mother as she does deadlifts.
[00:34:12 - 00:34:13] Kel: I've seen that one. Yeah.
[00:34:13 - 00:34:24] Ilana: Yeah, that one was pretty popular recently. And it's. It's a different world. So I hope these. Your different voices come through, but say something about fitness culture for us.
[00:34:25 - 00:36:37] Kel: Yeah, it's. Yeah, it is all pervasive, especially in Instagram. And I think there is, especially as a parkour practitioner, as it's a discipline, it's a sport. Some people call it either or both. And it is actually. There's a lot of history of it being about building strength, building stamina, and so it feeds into some of those stereotypes about fitness and strength being tied to worth. But at the core of it, I believe that it is about joy and curiosity, and it is about exploration. And any. Any fitness, any gains, in my opinion, flow out from that. And if you change the way that you look at it to be based in. In that core of, you know, not to be cheesy, love does change your own relationship with your body. Whereas if you look at A lot of fitness culture, it is instead based in productivity and capitalism and punishing of your own body, which in my opinion doesn't lead to a healthy relationship with your body, you know, and it is difficult because a lot of what we do is about strength and conditioning. You want to become strong and you want to gain a good level of conditioning in your body, both to protect yourself from injuries, overuse, but also to just make certain movements easier. So having a level of consistency in your training and having a good level of functional movement is, is amazingly important for both parkour training and for, you know, just having an easier life. Having. Having a life that's more filled with joy. But like the focus on, I know either aesthetics or productivity, I think in some ways is counter to what we, we do, I think.
[00:36:37 - 00:37:37] Ale: Yeah. And I think there are also ways that you can make kind of strength training for parkour fun because often you're doing strength training out in a public space and there are obstacles around and then you can be creative about. Okay, so I want to increase my leg strength and I've got a few steps of different levels. What can I do here that will increase that? Maybe I can do some jumps or I can do a sideways squat combined with another movement and then I might go off and do it like play for a little bit and then come back and do some push ups or, you know, so you can build fun and play into that consistency as well. And I think I find that that's what keeps me coming back because I want to do it. It's not like, oh, I'm going to go back to the gym to do my routine that I've been handed by someone and just, just follow along and do that routine. There's, there's some, there's some creativity that you can bring to it as well.
[00:37:38 - 00:37:39] Ilana: Love that.
[00:37:40 - 00:38:14] Kel: Yeah. I think there's also given that, that parkour is a very broad movement discipline, it involves a large range of skills. I think there's also just about everybody will have something that they're really good at and just about everybody will have something that they suck at and that makes them feel a bit like no. And that doesn't map on to body types or how tall, short, buff, fat, whatever you are, that everybody has.
[00:38:16 - 00:38:16] Ilana: Has.
[00:38:17 - 00:38:46] Kel: Value in the way that they move through the world. And you'll feel that in a good jam with a good community that everybody has a respect for every other literal body in the space and what it can and can't do or what that body is good at. And so it's much less like in other sports. You'll see every power lifter is built like a fridge and every diver is built like a.
[00:38:47 - 00:38:49] Ilana: Like a pain pole.
[00:38:49 - 00:39:09] Kel: Yep. There's a lot more body diversity in parkour, both because it hasn't become. What's the word? Professionalized in the same way here as other sports, but also because every. Every body type has value in. In the discipline.
[00:39:09 - 00:39:15] Ilana: And sometimes there's group challenges that I've seen that you need people to come together.
[00:39:15 - 00:39:15] Kel: Yeah.
[00:39:15 - 00:39:32] Ilana: You wouldn't be able to do alone. You. You can't do the complicated stacks and climbs and lifts, much like one of the styles of rock climbing that's popularized in the Czech Republic, where you build up towers and stand on top of each other in order to place the first piece of gear.
[00:39:33 - 00:39:34] Kel: Amazing.
[00:39:34 - 00:39:59] Ilana: I haven't even seen it. It's all teamwork, but it's a really interesting way to experience a city, to map a city, to move through a place and look at it through a lens you might not have considered. Sometimes people need to know that there is a sport out there and it has a name and there's a group as enough of a license for people to show up and try it. What has been some of your best memories of parkour in the city or your local environment?
[00:40:01 - 00:40:55] Kel: Oh, that's a big one. I mean, I do have a lot of fun. I mean, it's a little left of centre, but I do have some fond memories of COVID because we were doing a lot of stuff in our lounge rooms over Zoom in a really, really dark time in which I didn't want to leave my bed. I was playing the first Zelda game and basically that was all I wanted to do. But I knew that we had sessions where we'd all get on Zoom in our lounge room and figure out ways to make a parkour challenge. I mean, you know, you were there. Or figure out ways to make time for us all to get together, but also to move. And it was a lifesaver to some extent. So it's weird to answer that question with my lounge room, but I just did so there.
[00:40:55 - 00:41:21] Ilana: That's a really beautiful ode to mysticity. Yeah, and I think it's. It was a very hard time and very, very difficult and varied memories for people, but I think many also found beauty and a chance to slow down in a rare moment. And we can hold those dualities. Absolutely, because that's life. We can hold the difficult and the joyous discoveries at the same time. How about you, Ale?
[00:41:21 - 00:43:00] Ale: I'm finding it really hard to pick one. But I think I would just go broad brush and talk about my training sessions with women of Melbourne Parkour, which is not restricted just to women. Basically anyone is welcome of any gender. And yeah, just the sense of joy and excitement and togetherness that you can get from playing in a group. And especially once everyone's kind of warmed up and they found challenges and we're all bouncing ideas off each other and then yeah, like encouraging your friends through a challenge and then seeing them get it and then that inspires you to try it when you wouldn't even have thought to try it before. And then you get it too. And it's just that sense of like elation, like you're building each other up. I think that's, that's been really special. And, and I was also reflecting on how that has also been kind of changing my mental and emotional map of the city because I've had all these very joyful memories in public spaces with, with other people that it makes me, it makes me feel more at home in public spaces because I have those memories and associations that when I walk through a space like I feel like, ah, you know, I, I have positive emotions to draw on in connection to this space.
[00:43:01 - 00:43:05] Ilana: That makes a lot of sense of mental and emotional map. I love that. Say more.
[00:43:07 - 00:44:13] Ale: Well, I think, I think we have a sense of a city based on. We kind of imagine a city based on how we move through it and we can connect. We create this imagination kind of by collaging these memories of, of moving through different spaces and there's different experiences you have in those spaces. And I know personally that through. Yeah, through different times of my life I've had more fearful associations of public space. Like especially a few years back there was someone who was murdered in Brunswick. And I remember like being in and around Brunswick was, was quite stress inducing around.
[00:44:14 - 00:44:17] Ilana: It was very unsettling. Yeah, it's still unsettling for many. Yeah.
[00:44:19 - 00:45:12] Ale: And so, yeah, just having that knowledge of that violence is a possibility in public spaces. Yeah, it, even though I haven't like directly experienced violence, I've had microaggressions like catcalling and that kind of thing. And that kind of reminds you that that is a possibility. And so I suppose having these experiences with women of Melbourne Parkour, it's almost like counterbalancing that and, and weighting it more towards those, those more positive memories of public space that rather than retreating away from public spaces because of that fear and withdrawing and withdrawing. That's what I found Anyway, you know, it's different for everyone.
[00:45:12 - 00:45:24] Ilana: That's really wonderful. It's testament to the restorative powers of community and coming together and claiming space. A level of critical mass. Like some of your sessions are not small.
[00:45:26 - 00:45:54] Kel: Yeah, it is a really fantastic way, especially for people who do feel less able to take up public space because of the ever present threat of violence. We can find ways around it and one of them is, is critical mass. We can find ways to win back what's been taken.
[00:45:54 - 00:45:59] Ilana: Yeah, advocacy is a really big part of your work.
[00:46:00 - 00:46:01] Kel: I hope so.
[00:46:06 - 00:46:26] Ilana: I guess in many ways, I suspect it's a mixture of necessity and your strong moral compass that started it, started the passion and the fight for it. But more specifically, how does that intersect with parkour and some of the strategies and policies you have in place and have been fighting for as well?
[00:46:27 - 00:47:36] Kel: Yeah, it's been a hard road in some ways because one of the things we'd like to move towards is talking with councils and advocating to councils and people who do build public space that it should be playable. But I've been trying to poke councils about it for a long time and I think for a long time they were afraid of the word parkour. So you come up with ways to avoid that word if it isn't getting you where you want. But I think a tide has turned and that a lot of councils and a lot of people have more awareness of parkour and are more willing to build the spaces like Balham, which is a double edged sword, as we discussed. But yeah, we've always trying to get involved with any play spaces, any councils that we can annoy with our requests for things to climb on and art.
[00:47:36 - 00:48:02] Ilana: Projects and yeah, workshops. You've done a number of them. So if anyone looks around the calendars of town, I'm sure there'll be many more in the future as there has been in the past. So keep your eyes peeled. Absolutely. Anything coming along from Melbourne in motion as well. So for people who have. We've piqued their interest tonight, perhaps they're keen to give it a go. What would you advise?
[00:48:03 - 00:48:20] Kel: Well, if you can come along to one of our classes on a Saturday, they are in the cbd, so it's a bit of a. Bit of a hike. But yeah, you can go to our website and book in a class or you can always just send us an email through there with your questions about parkour and how to get started.
[00:48:22 - 00:48:25] Ilana: What's the contact email just for the listeners.
[00:48:25 - 00:49:17] Kel: Hello@melbinmotion.com so, M E, L, B, I, N, M, O, T, I, O, N. I hope I spelled that right. So, yeah, we're always happy to answer any questions that you may have, and that's a great way to start. You can also go on to any social media and look for local groups. Like there's a Facebook group called Melbourne Parkour. So that's another great way to find people in your local area. Vet them first, obviously. But you can. You can look for community and look for jams, which is where everyone comes together and all plays in the same space. So jams can be a fantastic. Jams are a fantastic way to train parkour because everyone is building this sense of community, working together.
[00:49:18 - 00:49:19] Ilana: What's a jam for the listeners?
[00:49:19 - 00:49:58] Kel: Yeah, they can be a little bit intimidating because it's not a class structure. It is. Everyone turns up and does basically what they want to. So you might have a group of people working on some jumps, you might have some people doing climbing over there. And if you don't know anyone and you just turn up and you don't know much about parkour, it can be quite intimidating because you're like, I'm going to. What do I do now? So a jam is an informal training session without a structure. Some do have some structures, but for some people, a class may be a more welcoming first step, depending.
[00:49:59 - 00:50:20] Ilana: Wonderful. Give it a go. Get involved, try it out. At the very least, do it as a weekend activity to see your city in a different way. Step off the tourist bus. What advice would you have for someone who might be a little bit nervous setting off into parkour and parkour community?
[00:50:21 - 00:51:47] Ale: Yeah, I think what I would keep in mind is that just as there are progressions for every movement, there are ways to make everything harder. There's also regression. So there's always ways to make something easier. So if you can't do a jump that's one meter long, you can practice it that in 50 centimeters, you know, or you can. If you can't do a vault over a rail, you can kind of just place one leg on it and then swing the other leg over. Because even if it feels like you're not doing the movement right, you're still getting your body used to the pattern of movement. And I found that the more I do that and the more confident and comfortable I get with that pattern, it starts to come over time and also to not worry about whether you're strong enough, because that's something I hear from people who want to start, but they feel like they're not strong enough. The Thing is that you get strong through doing the movements, because sometimes they are quite specific movements and you might not have trained those muscles before, but the main thing is to start. And usually when you start, you have a good time, so you come back, and then you get stronger. So it's all about building slowly, slowly, and just being patient.
[00:51:48 - 00:52:41] Ilana: That's really good universal advice. And have fun. That's very good universal advice for any new beginning, any new endeavor, any new project. Those lessons that you've very obviously taken from parkour and disseminated through a whole experience in life, and I see that in both of you because you're such curious people. You're interested in so many different disciplines in writing and art practice. Kel, you're about to start a PhD. So we wish you all the very best for the PhD ahead and the book ahead as well. I'm resisting asking when we could expect it. I don't want to put any pressure on you. So we look forward to following you along on social media and seeing when that book will be announced and what's next on the horizon. So I guess a final question is, well, what gives you hope?
[00:52:43 - 00:53:27] Kel: Geez, push me off a cliff with the last question, why don't you? Yeah, I think it is. And this has been the theme of the whole thing, but it is coming together with people that when I am at my most hopeless, it's generally when I'm alone and then when I turn up to something like this, to something like a parkour jam and see the. The joy in community or just hang out with people, that. That is what pulls me out of the pit. I think.
[00:53:29 - 00:53:31] Ilana: It'S very true. Yeah.
[00:53:31 - 00:54:28] Ale: I would also say the community, but with a slightly different angle, I think, from what I've seen in the parkour community. There's a lot of care for other people, you know, not only in parkour training, where people are encouraging other people to do their challenges and teaching what they know and learning from other people, but also outside of Parkour, there's been so many times where I've seen other people helping other people in the community. And so often when you travel, like recently I went to Colombia and I. I spent time with the Paco community there, and people were so, so generous and so welcoming. And I've heard that it's like that in so many parts of the world. The Paco community is very generous and welcoming in general.
[00:54:29 - 00:54:33] Ilana: How did you find them? How did you connect with the Colombian PKO practitioners?
[00:54:33 - 00:54:44] Ale: Well, someone who I was interviewing was Colombian, and she connected me with people in Bogota and in Kali as well.
[00:54:45 - 00:54:47] Ilana: Fantastic. Will we read about her in your book?
[00:54:47 - 00:54:48] Kel: Probably.
[00:54:49 - 00:55:30] Ilana: Sounds wonderful. Well, thank you so much for your work, for your classes, for your advocacy, for your different readings of a city and different ways to experience it. Because it can be, for some people, the first gateway into movement and sport. And for others, it can be first gateway into caring about the public realm and caring about cities and perhaps even walkability, because all these things are interconnected. You know, if you're able to walk around a city and play in the city and be safe in a city and release some of that stress, then these are all things that we collectively hope for for a better public realm. So thank you so much for joining me tonight.
[00:55:31 - 00:55:32] Kel: Thank you.
[00:55:32 - 00:56:01] Ilana: And thank you. Thank you to everyone who's been listening for the the last month that and everyone who supported the show so far. We look forward to bringing many more weekly episodes to come and continuing conversations on very wonderful and weird and varied interconnections in the world of architecture. Because architecture is all about ideas and architecture really is everywhere. Good night.
[00:56:05 - 00:56:07] Ilana: Thanks for joining me for another evening.
[00:56:07 - 00:56:09] Ilana: Of Radio Architecture with Alana Rasbash.
[00:56:10 - 00:56:16] Ilana: This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrim Studio on Bonarong Country.
[00:56:16 - 00:56:20] Ilana: You can replay the show wherever you get your podcasts.
[00:56:20 - 00:56:23] Ilana: Thanks for tuning in and supporting Community Radio.
[00:56:24 - 00:56:24] Ilana: Take care.
[00:56:26 - 00:56:36] Speaker A: Hello, my name is Dave Graney. I am an underworld musician of many years standing. I'm here to ask you to tune into my fellow traveler, my comrade, Radio Karam.
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ArchipodcastHK Collaboration Hong Kong

5 | July 05, 2023

Tidus Shing of ArchipodcastHK on Hong Kong & hope

Tidus Shing is an architect, educator, author, innovator and social advocate with passion for narrative design. He has taught master and bachelor level design studios at his alma mater RMIT University and continues to share his thoughts and ideas by co-hosting hugely popular Cantonese language weekly podcast, ArchipodcastHK.

Tidus collaborated with Hong Kong Shenzhen Bi-City Biennale of Urbanism/Architecture and has been involved in various curations and publications locally and internationally.

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Tidus Shing of ArchipodcastHK on Hong Kong & hope
[00:00:01 - 00:02:14] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
Ilana: Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country. My name is Ilana Razbash and we are broadcasting to you live on Radio Karrum from the Karrum Karrum swamp off unceded aboriginal land. Tonight I am joined by Tita Shing. He's an architect, educator, author, innovator and social advocate with a passion for narrative design. He has taught master and bachelor level design studios at our alma mater RMIT University and continues to share his thoughts and ideas by co hosting the hugely successful and popular Cantonese language podcast on a weekly basis. ArchipodcastHK Titus collaborated with Hong Kong Shenzhen by City Biennale of Urbanism and Architecture and has been involved in various curations and publications locally and internationally. We're so lucky to have Titus living in Melbourne and being able to share some insight with us tonight about the world of architecture and architectural discourse in Hong Kong and across the world and give us an English language insight because this show is exclusively mostly in Cantonese, which I'm really excited about to peek into that and also having your first appearance on live radio. So a bit of a live radio to podcast crossover tonight. So welcome Titus.
[00:02:15 - 00:02:22] Tidus: Hello everyone, I'm Tidus. It's really great to be here and it's so exciting to be on live.
[00:02:22 - 00:02:34] Ilana: Thank you so much for coming on. Well, you know the first question but I'm going to ask a different one tonight. I want to know what brought you into architecture? What. What made you want to become an architect?
[00:02:35 - 00:04:15] Tidus: I think it's actually starting from my secondary school at the moment that I actually didn't study art or design, but I was involved in a lot of like art and design for the classes and also for clubs and I always knew that I really like that and want to pursue a career in that view, but I didn't know whether I'm going for like interior design, graphic design or whatever. At that time I was lucky to be in an open day of a university and I saw that amazing physical model that is on display and an architectural faculty. So I was like, it would be so amazing if we can like, I can actually study architecture and just having fun doing projects and building models while forget about all the exams. And that's what I was thinking at that moment, but I didn't know that actually it takes a Lot of hard work. Yes. Everyone's kind of regret when they step into the faculty and they realize there are a lot of work. But at the end of day, after all the studying, I realized that is actually such a fantastic thing to do because you get to know so many things from like the social perspective, the history, historical perspective. Everything that you can actually like be interested in, you can actually invest time in it.
[00:04:15 - 00:04:23] Ilana: Totally. It's a generalist profession. Right. We have to study a little bit of everything. A bit of science, law, history and all that is necessary.
[00:04:23 - 00:04:27] Tidus: It's so broad for registration. Yes, exactly.
[00:04:27 - 00:04:43] Ilana: And ethics as well. Y I am going to ask you though the. The famous first question now. Given that your first introduction to architecture was at uni open day and all that convincing worked on you. Interestingly, what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:04:44 - 00:05:45] Tidus: I would say it's probably quite different from a lot of Melbourne people because I actually grew up in Hong Kong. So as a completely different kind of urban context, I live in a pretty big housing estate with something like 17 blocks of 30 story building. But it was actually not the interior or the apartment that makes me feel like this kind of the first place that I have a first strong memory. But the public area that is connected as a podium that connects all the buildings. So there is a very large public space that becomes a kind of almost like a playground. It doesn't really have a very specific purpose, it's more like a passageway. But it was used as a kind of playground for kids.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:46] Ilana: Single level?
[00:05:47 - 00:06:36] Tidus: Yep. It's on the flat surface so as kind of connecting all the buildings. What's so special about it is and Mid Autumn festival, which is also called the Moon Festival. Also called the Moon Festival, we have kind of a time that a lot of children will actually go to this podium and have a exciting events of celebration of that festival. Bringing like lanterns and then having glow sticks all around and then the families are actually having picnic mats and having mooncakes. That is such a vibrant environment that.
[00:06:37 - 00:06:38] Ilana: A real community space.
[00:06:38 - 00:06:43] Tidus: Yeah, exactly. So I was quite surprised how it works out in that way.
[00:06:44 - 00:06:46] Ilana: Oh, how wonderful. What a sweet memory.
[00:06:46 - 00:06:46] Tidus: Yes.
[00:06:47 - 00:06:53] Ilana: And is that where your interest in our public life and public architecture came from, do you think?
[00:06:53 - 00:07:16] Tidus: I guess that probably didn't come from that side because as something that is inborn and I didn't have that reading at that time, I think I just enjoyed being there. But I think that might have been a little bit of inference of why I'm actually interested in spaces.
[00:07:17 - 00:07:29] Ilana: Fantastic. What is the perception of architecture and the architectural community, the architectural discourse. What do people think about the profession in Hong Kong?
[00:07:30 - 00:08:21] Tidus: That's probably quite different from here in the sense that here you got a lot of very well designed building which is done by architects and they are fairly well craft and there are a lot of considerations and the value of the design. But in Hong Kong there are just too many high rise and because the city is just way too dense in a way that it is very property market driven as a result, a lot of like residential buildings are considered more like a product instead of a place to live. That's why I would say it is not as it is like people have a different perception towards architecture in Hong Kong.
[00:08:21 - 00:09:03] Ilana: That's interesting. A lot of people would critique though the kind of investor driven housing market in Australia, especially in our major capital cities. In that way though, like people would really say, oh, everyone's buying this as an asset and they're not Regarding the quality of the build which we've been talking about on the show about really high quality architect led developer models presenting really beautiful, livable, wonderful, wonderful buildings. A lot of those by Austin, Maynard and Nightingale and the architects involved in that one. I know you've done an episode on this sort of model of housing or you've looked at social housing in Hong Kong. Is that again really super different to what we're seeing here?
[00:09:04 - 00:09:59] Tidus: I would say that Hong Kong is interesting in a way that because there are such a big population and a lot of people are actually living in substandard housing, some of them are actually having like really tiny house, like apartment. And then there are people who are actually living and illegally in factory buildings. Yeah, kind of like because it's kind of illegal in, in a sense. But there are people who actually rent out factory apartments for because of the low rent and there are people actually living there. So I think there is a very high demand for housing. However, we couldn't quite catch up with that, that requirement here.
[00:09:59 - 00:10:14] Ilana: Hearing more and more that it's a almost a universal issue at the moment, especially reports coming uk they're also experiencing the housing crisis. You have a microphone in London? Tell me more about this roving mic that AKI Podcast HK have.
[00:10:14 - 00:11:06] Tidus: Yeah, so basically our main studio is in Hong Kong and then I located in Melbourne but we also have a lot of like overseas guests. So we have a mic in London which allows us to actually do guest episode there. We have quite a lot of friends there because of Hong Kong people. Kind of quite a lot of students actually study Abroad, there are quite a lot of Hong Kong students here. And Australia there are some. And uk and then they kind of stay there and continue their professions. That's why we think there are quite a huge number of listeners there. We. That's why we set up a mic there. How we do it is almost like.
[00:11:07 - 00:11:09] Ilana: Yeah, how's the time zone?
[00:11:10 - 00:11:29] Tidus: Time zone, That's a very crazy idea. Like what we have to actually check online and see which time slot will work. The craziest one is like we have a guest from us and then guests from UK and then we have Hong Kong and Melbourne. Four different time zone.
[00:11:29 - 00:11:32] Ilana: Four different time zone? Yes. One. One podcast.
[00:11:32 - 00:11:41] Tidus: Yeah. And someone need to wake up really early and I have to stay like up late. Something like 11 as a start.
[00:11:41 - 00:11:57] Ilana: Oh, wow. Tatus, you work so hard. You also, on top of being an architect, working full time in practice and in Melbourne practice, you also have tutored at university. What have been some of those academic interests?
[00:11:58 - 00:13:05] Tidus: I would say I'm very interested in hope at the moment. Hope is something that has been around my major project for quite a while and that ties back into what I'm doing now with a little bit of education and aged care projects. And that makes me think at its really fluctuating world. You have wars in Ukraine, you have that in Africa, you have refugee issues, you have every like stress and kind of daily life. That that all adds up in a way that we kind of in is in a condition that we really need certain types of hope. And I'm very curious how that could play a part and actually physical environment and how that we could design some sort of buildings that embrace that or provide a type of hope.
[00:13:06 - 00:13:41] Ilana: You and I very much have that in common. We believe good architecture should be a vehicle for hope and connection and some sort of joy and ambition and possibility. But you know, dear listeners, we're using all these nice words, but the thing is architecture is about ideas. And we in our work and try to represent these ideas in a building, try and create the spaces to help support that so that it can thrive into a place. But you sometimes take that a step further. What is narrative design?
[00:13:42 - 00:14:16] Tidus: Narrative design, it depends on how you define it. There are different ways of considering it. Narrative design could be a direct application of some sort of storytelling. It could be comes from probably an entire like cultural story. It could be coming from a fairy tale and then applying to a building in a way that to create some sort of connection and narrative that can let people understand the building differently.
[00:14:16 - 00:14:18] Ilana: You can also experience of the building, Right.
[00:14:18 - 00:14:19] Tidus: Yeah, exactly.
[00:14:19 - 00:14:23] Ilana: In the spaces that you will feel that story as you move through it.
[00:14:24 - 00:14:53] Tidus: Another way of doing it is through referencing for example, if you have a kind of natural landscape and you want to get a little bit of connection with that, a way of doing a. Through representing that with brick planton. I think it is so important that if we embrace this kind of design strategy, people can actually fill the connected to the building. They. They will treat it completely differently.
[00:14:53 - 00:14:56] Ilana: They'll understand more than just a box. Right?
[00:14:56 - 00:14:56] Tidus: Yeah.
[00:14:56 - 00:14:57] Ilana: Just telling their stories.
[00:14:57 - 00:15:03] Tidus: Yep. And feels like it is something that is more important to them than just functional building.
[00:15:04 - 00:15:33] Ilana: And ultimately that's sustainability, right? Yes. When you have connected to the building, when you're connected to place, when you want to look after it, preserve it for century after century. Yeah, that's sustainability. Because the exact statistic escapes my mind at this moment. But the construction industry produces an enormous amount of waste and addition to landfill in Australia demolition cycles of buildings. Right.
[00:15:33 - 00:15:49] Tidus: Yeah. That's probably also because we didn't have that attachment. So we feel like it is old then we can actually demolish it and get a completely new building. But it doesn't always need to be like practice like that.
[00:15:49 - 00:15:52] Ilana: Yeah. When you feel responsible for it, you want to look after it.
[00:15:52 - 00:15:52] Tidus: Yes.
[00:15:52 - 00:15:59] Ilana: A bit longer. What's the attitude in Hong Kong with urban renewal and demolitions and new builds.
[00:15:59 - 00:17:18] Tidus: Old builds, that's such a big topic. I would say they're actually demolishing everything really quickly in a way that most of the old fabric got remove easily because there are such a high demand in terms of what new build can actually generate a profit. So they try every method to actually get rid of old stuff. And now there are a few older district which is very important to Hong Kong like Mong Kong and. And Shenshui Po, which is a very unique, relatively low density area with old shops and very high cultural value that is going to go through some sort of urban renewal. They started with a few approval of high rise and that the entire area is basically gentrified and. And that kind of result in the reconsideration of the entire area. So kind of sad story, but that's what is always happening.
[00:17:21 - 00:17:24] Ilana: What's the population of Hong Kong at?
[00:17:24 - 00:17:42] Tidus: Is about 7,8 million in a really small city. So it's very dense. I'll say that the building like height now is something like 50, 60 stories now. So on average. So that's a bit crazy to imagine.
[00:17:42 - 00:17:58] Ilana: No, I don't think most Australians could imagine. I don't Think we could capture that. And like when we talk about wanting to increase density to improve housing availability in Australia, people are talking about medium density, like three to five stories.
[00:17:59 - 00:18:08] Tidus: Yeah, that's something that Hong Kong people also couldn't quite understand as well. The first time I in Melbourne, I felt like, oh, so spacious.
[00:18:13 - 00:18:16] Ilana: And what about suburbia? Was suburbia a bit of a shock then?
[00:18:17 - 00:18:29] Tidus: Yeah, I would say so. I spent less time in the suburbs. But that kind of low density is something that a lot of Hong Kong people actually dreams for.
[00:18:30 - 00:18:30] Ilana: Okay.
[00:18:30 - 00:18:31] Tidus: Yeah.
[00:18:32 - 00:18:38] Ilana: Have you done an episode on that sort of urban suburban living? Has it, has that come up in your show?
[00:18:40 - 00:19:19] Tidus: Not really. But in Hong Kong there are another type of typology that is actually quite close to that. But not a lot of people live in there because we have villages and the new territories, which is at the north of the city, which is quite far away, where you have a lot of country parks. And in that area you actually have some low density village houses as a settlement, which is something that is left behind because of the historic reasons.
[00:19:19 - 00:19:21] Ilana: Like a traditional village.
[00:19:22 - 00:19:49] Tidus: It used to be. It used to be traditional village, but there are a type of like permit that allows people from that village to continue to build. So it becomes something that is something like a three story typical, like standard housing that is without the signs. But that kind of configuration is quite unique to Hong Kong.
[00:19:49 - 00:19:52] Ilana: And that's so interesting. And under unique license.
[00:19:53 - 00:19:56] Tidus: Yeah, that's probably coming from the idea.
[00:19:56 - 00:19:56] Ilana: Of.
[00:20:00 - 00:20:13] Tidus: Traditional families who are the original owners of the land can actually get land rights. But that's very controversial, I think.
[00:20:14 - 00:20:14] Ilana: Okay.
[00:20:14 - 00:20:15] Tidus: Yeah.
[00:20:15 - 00:20:22] Ilana: You cover so many topics on your podcast. We've been doing it for a number of years now. How many, what's the total episode count?
[00:20:23 - 00:20:26] Tidus: It is now 125 episodes.
[00:20:26 - 00:20:29] Ilana: 125. Congratulations. That's a round number.
[00:20:29 - 00:20:36] Tidus: Yes. And it has been already two and a half year. I can't believe time flies so quickly.
[00:20:37 - 00:20:41] Ilana: Has it gone quickly for you that quickly? Well, yeah, I'm on number five at the moment.
[00:20:41 - 00:20:42] Tidus: You will get there very soon.
[00:20:42 - 00:20:58] Ilana: Soon I think I'll wake up and I'll be 125 like you. Maybe on somebody else's podcast. If someone has me, has me as a guest on that on that moment. But what has been your favorite topic or your, your favorite conversation that you've had on your show?
[00:20:58 - 00:22:05] Tidus: I would say my favorite one is actually about islanders. We got a group of students from Hong Kong universities which is still doing their degree and then they were sharing their experience of Going out to an island called Po Toi, meeting the villagers there without knowing them before and trying to get them to. Trying to help them to paint the wall and then get family with them. Then they try to get a project from the villages to build a little pavilion in the house. So it is quite an interesting self built experience of doing a little pavilion with bamboo and metal water pipe, low cost, looks like island construction. It has a swing there and becomes super popular. And that's such a unique kind of experience that I've ever heard.
[00:22:05 - 00:22:12] Ilana: Oh cool. You wouldn't happen to remember the episode number of that one just in case listeners want to jump across who understand Cantonese?
[00:22:13 - 00:22:18] Tidus: Probably not at this moment. But I can share as a photo sharing.
[00:22:18 - 00:22:25] Ilana: Yeah. We'll follow up. We'll include a photo in Instagram post later this week. You also share a lot of photos in your channel?
[00:22:25 - 00:22:26] Tidus: Yes.
[00:22:26 - 00:22:45] Ilana: Aki podcast hk yeah. With. With all your episodes and cultural references, I. Even though I can't understand what your episodes are about, I always find it really interesting to look at that material as it's coming through. I actually think I remember the islander one. That really informal pavilion.
[00:22:45 - 00:22:45] Tidus: Yes.
[00:22:46 - 00:22:54] Ilana: Really democratized, really self built. Because anyone can do this. You don't even have to be a student of architecture to play around with something like that.
[00:22:54 - 00:23:19] Tidus: Yeah. And that's very interesting in a way that they are so energetic in a way that they want to build something so they try to approach the people or the places that has the possibility to offer them a chance. So. And it's such a culturally significant place that they try to do that. So it's a great work.
[00:23:20 - 00:23:54] Ilana: That's fantastic. I hope they documented it well. I'm sure they did. It's a unique capture. And as I mentioned earlier, you share a lot of cultural precedents, meaning that's just films, movies, poetry, art, things that inform architecture and help build up those stories that you say is part of narrative design. Can you share a few words about what precedence and the inclusion of cultural precedence means means to you and your work and practice?
[00:23:55 - 00:25:23] Tidus: I would say that is very important to keep the culture and the identity of a place to be alive in a way that if we can identify what's important around us and try to keep the tradition. For example, in Hong Kong there are a lot of. A lot of different kind of tradition. For example, in mid Autumn festival there are fire dragon dancing things like that which has actually becomes something that require preservation because all this eliminating of villages and not the older generation as passing away. So we actually encounter A lot of this kind of like valuable cultural items that are gone. So I think it is important not only to keep that kind of tradition and have someone that can follow through, but we can also do something with our built environment and try to capture that and become something that we celebrate or having a community that cares about it and provide them with space that can allow these things to happen.
[00:25:24 - 00:25:38] Ilana: It's like that archival work almost, or another layer to archive keeping. It doesn't just have to be a record or a photo or something in a museum. It's setting up that memory more of that intangible cultural heritage.
[00:25:38 - 00:27:03] Tidus: Yeah, I've always think that sedation be just about demolition. It should be something that is continuous. If you actually look at the lineage of sld, you should be able to read what is in the past, what is in the present, and probably that should carry on through the future. So I'm actually quite interested in if you can keep certain part of it or if you are trying to rebuild, at least reference what is in the past so it becomes part of the city. Because if we look at some Asian city or places with a lot of history, you actually can recognize different buildings, elements from different stages. And that's something that is because of modification and people entering the space, having some sort of events in it and that accumulates along the path. And in modern city, a lot of like the system didn't work like that. It's just about clearing everything and then rebuilding something that looks great. But I really think that historic reference or accumulation of layering is really important.
[00:27:04 - 00:27:06] Ilana: I was just gonna say like a layer cake.
[00:27:06 - 00:27:07] Tidus: Yes, exactly.
[00:27:07 - 00:28:18] Ilana: Like a layer cake of history. And a lot of ancient cities have that where the archaeologists go back and pick and choose how far they dig. But if our urban fabric had that level of detail in it to explore and to feel through. That's my hope really. I think for cities, the bigger picture that we can also keep things that have a difficult past and a difficult history as an example, as a physical artifact. Even if it's regarded that a particular style suddenly goes out of fashion, or a building represents a really difficult moment in history, it can still be kept as an example of that and a lesson and as evidence and can be repurposed. Thinking about the former SS headquarters in Berlin is now the tax office. So was always the scariest building, is still the scariest building in Berlin. But they have a lot of architecture that preserves very difficult moments as evidence, as historical evidence of what happened in a society.
[00:28:19 - 00:28:53] Tidus: That is a fantastic example, I think it is really important how we actually understand that kind of importance and try to connect with all the buildings. I also think like even for smaller scale places like cafe and. Or even your home, I think there are potential this kind of personal memories actually accumulate and becomes something that is more complex than and meaningful.
[00:28:54 - 00:28:59] Ilana: Say more like individual personal memory, like the memory of the past owner.
[00:28:59 - 00:29:22] Tidus: Yeah. It will be quite interesting to treat a place in that sense because I think in a way that people are quite disconnected in a way if you can actually know who exactly living in that place before. It will be quite an interesting take on how you see the place as.
[00:29:23 - 00:30:36] Ilana: Time goes by 100%. And in this local area, actually in the city of Kingston, particularly nearby in Edith Vale, I'm hearing rumors and I'm chasing and investigating that there were three houses by Walter Burley and Marion Mahoney Griffin, really very eminent prominent immigrant architects who came from America to Australia and designed the Canberra master plan together and had a really successful career for which Walter got a bit more credit than Marion and she was absolutely instrumental in the work and works with Frank Lloyd Wright. So there's a number of their projects around. Rumor has it one is still standing, one is definitely demolished. It was a shop front to Nedith Vale. But there's a number of really interesting projects around and houses also around this area that have an interesting and tangible cultural heritage and I'm hearing aren't on the heritage register yet. So I'm chasing down these threads, dear listeners and hopefully will be a future topic, a future podcast session and maybe we can get someone from the Historical Society come on and talk about this.
[00:30:36 - 00:31:01] Tidus: That's such an amazing idea. That's why I think podcasts or radio is actually important to like architects in a way that kinds of create a kind of platform that you can actually have ideas that is buried to be like to be distributed and making people aware of things that they should be.
[00:31:01 - 00:31:44] Ilana: Oh, the most important, 100%, the most important thing for me on this show is to actually talk to people. To talk outside the architecture and archi speak bubble, which I try very hard not to do and translate for myself sometimes or translate for others because that's not the reality of the real world. And I think it's really important to actually talk to everyday people and talk to people in allied professions, people who are in politics, who are in historians. So far we've had who do parkour different sort of urban practitioners that use our spaces or create policy about our buildings who are upstream of our work even in a Way.
[00:31:45 - 00:32:49] Tidus: Yeah. That's part of my reason why I want to start this podcast in a way that I think that public connection with architecture is so important. And that basically comes from an initial thought of. Because I don't know if you have that experience of staying up late at uni, working with a bunch of friends, and then you probably get too tired of actually doing your project and start spinning off the topic and talk about something else. Some sort of social issues, some sort of things that is not related. History things. What you think about the world is going, what's the future? Very exciting topics, but they are kind of kept within the faculty at that time with those people. So that's why I was thinking, if we can actually get this amazing idea to everyone, that is such a good thing.
[00:32:50 - 00:32:53] Ilana: Yes. It's very much kept way too close to the heart.
[00:32:53 - 00:32:54] Tidus: Yeah, exactly.
[00:32:54 - 00:32:55] Ilana: And people are interested.
[00:32:56 - 00:32:57] Tidus: People love it.
[00:32:57 - 00:33:06] Ilana: These renovation shows, they get huge viewership, but, you know, it's clickbait sometimes. Yeah, in a way.
[00:33:06 - 00:33:22] Tidus: And there are actually a lot of content within the faculty and just casual talks. So that's why I has been feeling that as such an amazing way to actually let people understand what we are thinking.
[00:33:23 - 00:33:41] Ilana: And in your 125 episodes, like, sometimes you've really surprised me over the years with the topics that you've come up and how you link them back to architecture. In many ways. I think it's also somewhat inspired the broad thinking of this show. Yeah, people are interested. They absolutely are interested.
[00:33:41 - 00:34:48] Tidus: Yeah. Because the way I'm trying to run this show is more like I try to use plain language. I try to use daily examples. For example, a recent shot that is about underground architecture. I start with talking about the very popular game now all Around Zelda, about an underground world, and then tie it back to the history of the underground and then what are we doing? What's underground now? So that actually makes a lot of people being interested and listening. And another thing that I think is important is we invite guests to our episodes and we do not only invite academic guests. The major guests that is on our show are just normal citizens. For example, we have previously a secondary school student talking about her view about education system.
[00:34:48 - 00:34:50] Ilana: Oh, wow, that's so brave.
[00:34:50 - 00:35:27] Tidus: Yeah, exactly. And what she thinks is not good in terms of her education. So that's something that is always coming back. Another category of guests are actually professionals who are using some sort of typology. For example, we have a doctor who came to the show to discuss hospital design and her experience of actually being in the hospital working, that's so important.
[00:35:27 - 00:35:32] Ilana: I mean, the healthcare design space at the moment, that's so important to listen to the clinicians.
[00:35:33 - 00:36:01] Tidus: Yeah. And when we talk through her experience, we realized she cares a lot about patient. But she also felt that if hospital is probably a place where a lot of people actually die and have their last moment in life and they're just staring at a, like, white ceiling with very bright light, it wasn't that good as the experience.
[00:36:01 - 00:36:03] Ilana: No, no, it's not. It's not dignified.
[00:36:03 - 00:36:06] Tidus: You probably don't want that as the last moment.
[00:36:06 - 00:36:33] Ilana: No, that's not the way to think about the last moments. Or that's not a good place to die for good death. It's actually one of the things that motivated my interest at the moment in healthcare design, because I think those experiences in life are so important. Those moments are so important. That's excellent work that you're doing on your show. Very important work to have this broad range of discussion as well.
[00:36:34 - 00:37:07] Tidus: Yeah. And we also always ask our guests some open end question at the end of the show. In that episode with the doctor, we were asking her what she would like to change if she doesn't need to consider money or feasibility or constraint. She was saying that it would be really good if we can have a mini library and hospital. And I think that's such an amazing.
[00:37:07 - 00:37:11] Ilana: Idea, but it's such a humble request, but this is not much, is it?
[00:37:11 - 00:37:17] Tidus: I know, but as it's relatively difficult in Hong Kong, I would say the space.
[00:37:18 - 00:37:19] Ilana: What are some of the factors affecting that?
[00:37:19 - 00:37:35] Tidus: It's probably they didn't have that mindset of innovation and what kind of human touch as an important part, as in buildings. But I think things are improving, but quite in a slow rate.
[00:37:36 - 00:38:24] Ilana: We're lucky to have some really amazing hospital designs in Australia, you know, particularly in Melbourne. The Royal Children's has got meerkats, there's aquariums, all sorts of alternative spaces. There's more and more courtyards that we're doing, more and more places for people to still be within the hospital and be within a clinical environment, but have fresh air or even like, if they're inpatient, they're really, really unwell. They could still go outside and then nurses and doctors can take them outside and they can still be connected to all the tubes they need to be connected to. I'm shocked by the library, the book, that request. It's so simple. We put in our suitcase. We never read on holidays, but we take it with us, like the comfort of Books.
[00:38:24 - 00:38:58] Tidus: Yeah, exactly. What I feel like is that is something actually quite doable and that what we follow up usually is what's your first step of achieving that? Because what I feel like is a lot of people are, at first place, very scared to dream big. So we ask them for what's their wish list? And then we also ask for also guests. If you really want to do that, what's your first step?
[00:38:58 - 00:38:59] Ilana: That's such a good question.
[00:38:59 - 00:39:10] Tidus: Yeah. Because it probably will take quite a long time to actually achieving that. But if you don't take your first step and try to do something, it will never happen.
[00:39:10 - 00:39:12] Ilana: Yeah. Eat that elephant. One bite at a time.
[00:39:13 - 00:39:13] Tidus: Exactly.
[00:39:13 - 00:39:24] Ilana: As the saying goes. That's really awesome. What else has been an unexpected moment on your show for you? What's been a really, like, unexpected answer?
[00:39:26 - 00:40:47] Tidus: I would say because our show is recorded and is actually recorded for something like two and a half hours to even three hours length. And then we cut it down to 45 minutes. So what we can do is allow the guests to stop and think. We put a lot of very difficult questions that probably take a lifetime to achieve, but they are allowed to actually think about what they will react to that question. And then we try to condense it into something that is smooth and easy to listen. But we had a guest that suddenly start question. Start questioning about her own identity in the middle of the show. And that is possible. And I think it's a good thing because we asked questions about her personal experience, and that's so touchable. I couldn't actually talk about the content, but that could happen. I think podcast is interesting in a way that it allows these things to happen and while keeping all the audience very engaged.
[00:40:48 - 00:41:19] Ilana: Yeah. It creates a space between you and your conversation partner and your listeners. Actually, right now there's three people in this. It's you, me, and the listener. We're all in that together. That's really interesting as well. Resonates for me to hear the idea that someone started questioning their identity, having a really personal moment on the show. And it was good contribution to the show, good content. Because there's this idea that when things get really personal and they get very, very specific, they actually become universal.
[00:41:20 - 00:41:33] Tidus: Yeah. In a recent episode, we talk about the stress and doing architectural design and the mental health issue related to that.
[00:41:34 - 00:41:35] Ilana: In the profession or in students.
[00:41:35 - 00:41:42] Tidus: As a student. And that becomes such a popular one because actually a lot of people share that experience.
[00:41:43 - 00:41:46] Ilana: Oh, yeah. It sounds global as well.
[00:41:46 - 00:41:57] Tidus: It's about learning to understand your own emotion and try to have better control and understanding how you cope with that, I believe.
[00:41:57 - 00:42:39] Ilana: Yeah, totally. I think there's a slow of responsibility on the schools. I know it's definitely changed a lot since our time. It's really quite different. It's hard. I think most people don't realise how tough it is for an architecture student until they lose a friend to the study or they lose a family member and they suddenly disappear into the university and they're just working, working, working. But it's so worth it to be able to participate in this profession that of course it's a service and it's a job, but it's also many ways a privilege.
[00:42:39 - 00:43:04] Tidus: Yeah. Because what I think is architects has. The role of architects is changing in a way that is more public facing now There are a lot of bottom up design, engagement and collaboration design. So it becomes really public facing and engaging in a way that you feel like you can actually create a change.
[00:43:05 - 00:43:56] Ilana: There's a lot of interesting groups across Australia doing that too like Office who are based in Melbourne who do a lot of. At the moment they've got a big campaign advocating for the refurbishment of social housing and really instead of demolition it very much links harks back to what we were discussing earlier tonight. There's the Fulcrum agency that do amazing master planning and consultation strategy with remote indigenous communities. There's a number of groups that really anchor their work. I think Public Realm Lab do quite a lot of these sort of testings. This was maybe that experimental culture of Melbourne is also what makes being part of the architectural community here really exciting.
[00:43:58 - 00:44:48] Tidus: Yeah, I think that also happens in Hong Kong in a way that like architecture used to prefer distance from like the public in a way that people think architects are just building like people who built for the reach. But to like it is kind of still true to certain extent but it start changing because there are a lot more like involvement and community design and things like that. I think another perception change is also coming from the kind of Biennale and different kind of art festival having architects involvement and that is bringing a lot of like publicity about what architect can.
[00:44:48 - 00:45:00] Ilana: Actually do and how diverse the skill set is. And you luckily in Alis you've participated in a number of them. So tell me about the most recent one and what was the involvement of Archipodcast Hong Kong there?
[00:45:00 - 00:46:32] Tidus: Yeah, the Recent 1 is 2022 Biennale in Hong Kong and it was a interesting collaboration. We got an invitation from the Biennale to do a series of podcasts with the creator and then and also a few exhibitors so what we try to do, the Biennale is titled Seeds of Resilience. So there are quite a lot of growing or emerging practitioners in Hong Kong that is trying to make some changes and that Biennale actually grouped them. So we were lucky that we interview some emerging practitioner working on recycled plastic, where they learn the skill set from, I think Netherlands, and then bring it back and try to self build some machine. They collect the plastic and then try to make it into some sort of products and education workshop, things like that. So I think it's quite meaningful to getting that connection with this kind of people so they have a chance to actually let more people know about what they are doing.
[00:46:33 - 00:46:38] Ilana: And was it really publicly attended these Biennales? Like are the people interested? Are they showing up?
[00:46:39 - 00:47:44] Tidus: Yeah, I would say that's actually quite popular in a way that probably because Hong Kong, as I would say, quite a boring city in certain way. People tend to go to a lot of cultural events on the weekends. So that's something that is a massive event with something like four sites. They were using piers and reusing old spaces, which is quite an interesting take on site of Biennale. And the Biennale also display a lot of like upcoming emerging people who are investing their time and material exploration. There are people who are focusing on soil, there are people who are focusing on woodwork. So a lot of craftsmanship. And I think that is probably the next wave of architecture like design coming up.
[00:47:44 - 00:47:45] Ilana: Material innovation.
[00:47:45 - 00:47:52] Tidus: Yeah, exactly. Like more like texture and more fine grained.
[00:47:52 - 00:47:53] Ilana: I'd love that.
[00:47:53 - 00:47:54] Tidus: Yeah.
[00:47:54 - 00:48:28] Ilana: I hope everyone's sick of flat and beige and boring. Absolutely love that. I think a joke. This is absolutely a joke because no one's going to make me queen. But if they could, if it could, I'd have this rule where you couldn't have more than 30% bland, boring, gray and no blank walls. That's my dream. So I've told everyone what my dream secret is that would be really fantastic if we saw a renaissance of texture and material. Doesn't have to be bright and crazy colors, just not flat. Right?
[00:48:29 - 00:48:29] Tidus: Yes.
[00:48:30 - 00:48:48] Ilana: All those possibilities. Do you think that was being showcased at Venice? Did you pay attention with sort of what's happening in the news recently at all? Do you think these are unique ideas coming from Hong Kong at the moment or do you think I didn't actually.
[00:48:48 - 00:49:12] Tidus: Follow through what happens in Venice? But what I know is every time when there is a Venice Biennale, there are participation from Hong Kong. So what they will do is they will actually have a group of people creating an exhibition there. So it Will be good to know what they are doing this year.
[00:49:12 - 00:49:20] Ilana: I think maybe that's a future episode and you can fill us in. Or maybe one year you'll be able to broadcast from Venice.
[00:49:21 - 00:49:24] Tidus: That will be a very exciting opportunity.
[00:49:24 - 00:50:01] Ilana: Yeah. To report back to what's going on. I was just thinking about the public being interested in buildings and increasing interest and I really hope that's the case globally as well. I think it is. I think people have always cared about the buildings they're in though, where they've lived. We have Melbourne Open House coming up soon. It's a good chance for anyone who wants to have a sticky beak and have a peek inside buildings and places. Places and their. Their inner workings. Will you be attending what's on your checklist this year? I know you sometimes have a very busy program for yourself.
[00:50:01 - 00:50:18] Tidus: Yes, I actually have mentioned that like, like I have done some episodes about Open House as well and I usually have a pretty crazy like schedule with like something like six, seven buildings on.
[00:50:18 - 00:50:22] Ilana: A day across the whole weekend. So you're doing 12 buildings in the weekend?
[00:50:22 - 00:50:46] Tidus: Yeah, because it's such an amazing ide. Like have this building open and some of them are actually like houses. You never ever had the chance to get into someone beautiful houses and understand how design is so detaily considered. So I think it's an absolutely good idea to do that.
[00:50:48 - 00:50:54] Ilana: Do they leave them how they live or have they all been decorated for Open House? What have you noticed?
[00:50:55 - 00:51:06] Tidus: They're probably newly built so they are in pretty good condition I would say. So that is probably the best timing to actually look at that.
[00:51:07 - 00:51:08] Ilana: That's exciting.
[00:51:08 - 00:52:06] Tidus: Yep. And I actually really want that to happen in Hong Kong. Like in the. In a previous episode that I mentioned, Open House there are a lot of people in Hong Kong were saying that would be good if we can bring that to Hong Kong. Because a lot of places that are. That are very well designed in Hong Kong are actually quite interior based but it's not something that you can easily access. So if we can have an open house that allows us to get into these places, that will be a very good idea. I think groups that are interested in brutalism as probably trying to do something with a small version of Open House. But that's probably coming. It will be good to see a wide scale open house to be organized.
[00:52:07 - 00:52:28] Ilana: It's a pretty amazing opportunity we have in Melbourne. A lot of work goes into it. A lot of festivals on the calendar almost through all throughout winter and then spring's always so busy. It's Events like those, most of which are often free, largely free. That makes me feel so grateful to live in the city and have the opportunity to be part of that.
[00:52:29 - 00:52:44] Tidus: Yeah, Amphibian is another one that I really like and they hold so many activities and talks and it provides you so much to do after work.
[00:52:44 - 00:53:10] Ilana: Yes, I always go along to those as well. That's absolutely my tick list. And this year it's Tado Ando, very famous Japanese starchitect. So it'll regardless of what people think of starchitecture and starchitects, I think it's still very exciting to have this pop up, albeit for a season in Melbourne and then believe the pavilions will move off to their permanent home somewhere else across. Across the state, across the cities.
[00:53:10 - 00:54:05] Tidus: Yes, that's a very beautiful idea of creating a piece that is for the city and then we utilize it. And I also think that kind of fill in idea could actually happen in Hong Kong and that will benefit the entire like architectural like discourse. But there are something that is similar that is in Hong Kong called Design Trust that is recent funding that fund small projects and self initiate research. I think that is a very good opportunity for anyone who has the vision for actually providing a change to start approaching them and look for a way to realize things.
[00:54:06 - 00:54:16] Ilana: So it's really small scale really beginning at the moment. There's no large institutionally supported pavilions like that at the moment.
[00:54:17 - 00:54:33] Tidus: I suspect the M Museum used to think there are a potential of doing that. It didn't actually happen at the end as like yearly pavilion. So it will be interesting to see if there are a chance.
[00:54:34 - 00:55:00] Ilana: I'm sure if it comes up your podcast will be all over it. So what are the handles again? How can people follow along? How can they get in touch with you as well if they have any questions or contributions? I'm sure there's plenty of Cantonese language speakers and bilingual speakers who are listening along to us tonight who are probably also really fans of your show and want to get in contact with your start listening to your show. Maybe they discovered it this evening.
[00:55:01 - 00:55:21] Tidus: So our show is on a lot of podcast platform. You can find us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts and all other podcast platform. And if you are interested and if you are not a candid speaker, you can also follow our Instagram which is.
[00:55:21 - 00:55:52] Ilana: Akipodcasthk and has really great pictures and all sorts of exciting content to follow along to. Well tonight's been really really awesome Taetis and I have one last question for you and I think you'll have a really great answer to this because you're very much interested in this topic. Is it there's something that really underpins your work and your research and what you try to embed in the students when you're teaching at rmit. What gives you hope?
[00:55:53 - 00:56:41] Tidus: I would say people, people who has similar belief that you feel like you're not alone. And I think this podcast actually helps me a lot in a way that I receive a lot of DMs from Instagram listeners and they give me the encouragement to continue this podcast. But if you are looking for something that is more physical, you can go to the Wetland Observation Tower near Altona as it's a very interesting pavilion that is metal made and has a kind of spiral form, which is a place that makes me feel like hopeful.
[00:56:42 - 00:57:01] Ilana: You're the first person that has answered that question with a building. I love it. Yep, we're going to get a picture of it. We'll put it up on Instagram later, later this week. I look forward to having a look at it. I'm not sure I'm familiar with it. That's really exciting. Thank you so much for joining me tonight, Titus.
[00:57:01 - 00:57:02] Tidus: Thank you for having me.
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Edithvale Public Education

6 | July 12, 2023

Jan van Schaik on Edithvale-Seaford Wetlands Discovery Centre

Jan van Schaik is an artist and architect based in Melbourne. He is the director of MvS Architects, a creative-practice researcher and senior-lecturer at RMIT Architecture & Urban Design, the founder of +Concepts, creator of Lost Tablets (@lost_tablets), and a creative sector activist at Future Tense.

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Jan van Schaik on Edithvale-Seaford Wetlands Discovery Centre
[00:00:05 -00:00:53] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcment
[00:01:07 - 00:02:58] Ilana: I'm Ilana Razbash and this is Radio Architecture.
Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country. We are broadcasting to you live on Radio Carom from the unceded aboriginal land of the Kulin Nation. Tonight we'll focus deeper on the Karrum Karom Swamp, an ancient and dynamic ecosystem, remnants of which are protected across the Edith Vale and Seaford Wetlands. There is archaeological evidence of of Aboriginal occupation, settlement and agriculture in the wetlands 2,000 years prior to colonisation. This was the moment in geological time when the sea levels fell and the ancient swamp was formed. However, while water levels were higher, about 7,000 years ago, Bunurong peoples paddled on wooden canoes through the shallow tidal estuary, collecting mollusks. We acknowledge their ongoing connection to lands, water and sky. Tonight's guest on Radio Architecture with Alana Razbash is Jan Van Schaik. Jan is an artist architect based in Melbourne. He is the director of MVS Architects and a creative practice researcher and senior lecturer at RMIT Architecture and Urban Design. The founder of Anne Concepts, creator of Lost Tablets, and a creative sector activist at Future Tense, MVS Architects were the architects of the award winning Edith Val Seiferd Wetlands Education Center, a project which we shall hone in on later in this conversation. Welcome Jan. Thanks so much for joining me tonight.
[00:02:58 - 00:03:02] Jan: It's very nice to be here. Thank you for inviting and having me.
[00:03:03 - 00:03:15] Ilana: It's a pleasure. You come from a very creative family and I was wondering, did you have other career options or was architecture something you always knew?
[00:03:15 - 00:04:05] Jan: I was not given a choice. And they say that arranged marriages are often the ones that work out best. People finding themselves in a situation which they have no choice but to make the best of. It's the perfect example of fatalism changing to determinism through the actions of the individual. So I found myself in it through no decision that I made want me to look at it was that it was an accident or that it was the implication of it was told to me. But finding myself in it, I then became very interested and excited and engaged with it. So it's a path that I realized I was on after I was on It.
[00:04:05 - 00:04:19] Ilana: It's not uncommon, I think for some. Sometimes their parents push them in. They don't want them to be a poor artist. But you're from a very strong creative family. And so then what was your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:04:20 - 00:08:36] Jan: So I have a story about that. When I was in my 20s, I was reading a novel, fiction, called Zaire. It's about some spies in Africa. And in the novel there was a character that had a very interesting name which in my ignorance I didn't realize was an actual person. And listeners will recognize his name in a way that I didn't then. The name was Haile Selassie. It stuck in my mind. It got peaked again when a song was playing on the radio around about the same time. It was a rap song. And there was a sample in the song which was repeated over and over again. And in the sample there was someone making a hotel booking for someone called Harley Selassie. And my brain went, hang on a minute, what's that about? Why is the name of the book and the name of the song, which are two unrelated things? Why are they the same? But having the natural curiosity of a very busy 20 year old, I didn't give it another thought at all. Then one day at Sunday lunch, I was struggling to find something to say to my parents to whom I had not with whom I had not yet worked hard to communicate. And this snippet of curiosity popped into my mind and I said to my father, who is very well read, I said, no, I hate that. What's a Haile Selassie? And he said, well, it's funny you should ask. He explained what listeners probably already know, that Haile Selassie was the emperor of Ethiopia and the nominal founder of the Rasta movement. And he was exiled in the United Kingdom, where he was put up in the holiday home of an English newspaper editor in Cornwall. We're getting to the landscape in the building now. And in this home that he was put up, he lived for a long time in one of the rooms in the home. Long after he moved out, the newspaper editor sold it and it was purchased by a young English painter who later became a famous painter in the St. Ives school of painting, a painter called Patrick Heron. Patrick Heron painted and lived in this house for his entire career. And he had two daughters and one of them studied architecture, the AA with my. My father. And they formed an architecture practice together. And my mother and my father and Kate, who was in practice with. Who was Patrick Heron's daughter, used to go on holiday regularly to this amazing house that Patrick lived in. And the house is this sandstone. Oh, sorry, granite house amongst these giant granite boulders. And his paintings were these very abstract paintings. But he would talk about them, how they were part. They were paintings of the landscape that he was in. He was painting the feeling of the landscape coming up through his feet is what Patrick used to say about his very abstract, colorful flat paintings and prints. And this came back to an experience and a memory for me, because in the story that my father was explaining to me who Haile Selassie was, he then explained that in this house was a room called the Emperor's Room, which is the room that Haile Selassie lived in. And that's the room in which I was conceived. And I only found out this thing because I asked a stupid question. But I've been going back to that house for my whole life. It's still there and it's now a museum to Patrick Heron's life and it's looked after by his two daughters. And I visit it whenever I go to the UK and I visit that landscape. And so that that landscape is a very boldery, dynamic landscape and that has tied into my appreciation of spatial things and also the abstract and emotional understanding of things which seem spatial in a very dynamic physical way, but are also very meaningful in an emotional way. And Patrick's works are then key parts of my own art collection, which came out and began with a print that Patrick gave me of that landscape which was waiting for me when I got home from being born. So there's. This landscape is tied into my life in ways that much like my trajectory in the career of architecture. I only found out the significance and the journey of it well after the fact.
[00:08:37 - 00:10:29] Ilana: I love that story so much. It speaks to these inextricable interconnected threads that tie us all together. It's a theme that we come to in moments on the show. And the dynamism of the landscape is another image that has struck me and also sits with me when I think about the Edith Vale Seaford Wetlands Education Centre that Your office and VS Architects did back in 2011. It was opened and decorated in the awards in 2012. And I drive past this building every day, live in Edith Vale quite often, go up Edithvale Road and I notice how now it's engulfed by the landscape. The grasses have grown, the wetland has grown. Sometimes it rains lately, the last few months, and the precast soaks in the water, it runs off, it turns such a dark color, the impressions become deeper. That cheeky Orange that I'll ask you about later in the show says hello and peek a boo from the side and. And I always look at the reliefs and impressions and some moments it looks like wind, some moments it looks like water to me. Some moments it looks like reflections. So I want to touch on this project and it is the theme we've let listeners know that we are going to discuss tonight because I'm really interested in these notable buildings that we have in our local area that sometimes maybe people get used to and learn to live with and forget that there have been highly awarded for public architecture are important and sit on such a rare dynamic ecosystem. So my first question about this project is when your work began with it first. MVS architects did a master plan for the Ygthal Wetz lands, is that right?
[00:10:29 - 00:10:59] Jan: Yeah, there was. I mean the, the wetlands, the Ramsar listed wetlands, which are of international significance and quality and are a very important part of the migratory patterns of a lot of birds around the globe, is cared for by a number of people. Its nominal proprietary owner is Melbourne Water. But then there are a whole series of volunteers that look after. So there's a whole community of care around it.
[00:11:00 - 00:11:07] Ilana: The Friends of Edithville, Seaford Wetlands, the folks at the Bird Hide. It's busy, it is popular, that is for sure.
[00:11:07 - 00:13:03] Jan: So the money to pay to build the project was channeled through from Melbourne Water. But those that were actually the client is a much larger group. And so we had to engage with a complex group of people with different types of care and levels of interest and frequency of visiting. And so through that is how we actually began to really learn about what this wetlands meant to itself and to birds and to its history and what it meant to what it used to be before it became in the state that it currently is. And I might talk a bit more about its change over time later. But the master plan, a master plan is not simply a drawing of something which then gets rolled out. A master plan is part of. It's one of the last parts, but it's part of the political process of groups of people deciding what it is that they want to do with something. And it's because of that reason that master plans always change from how they're drawn to how they're made manifest because they are part of the decision making process. They're a group decision making purpose. They're made public. And if you look at the original sketches in the master plan that our office did, there are certain things that you'll recognize in that if you look at what's there now, but there's quite a lot that's different as well. And so that master plan was this live discursive tool and was part of that critical. It's called engagement. And that's a term that's used for that very frequently. But I try to talk about it in a different way because that has become a tag. And usually engagement often means where organization or a political body tells those about what they're getting. But this is actually. Engagement is actually a learning process.
[00:13:04 - 00:13:13] Ilana: Yeah, it's a working document. Yeah, it's not a beat down of the stakeholder. It's a process of collaboration and learning.
[00:13:13 - 00:13:48] Jan: And often, often when we're going a bit off topic here, but that's okay. I suppose often one of the things that happens through the engagement process is that rather than trying to get everyone to agree before you proceed, the art of engagement is working out how to help a group of people realize that often it's important to proceed even if there isn't complete agreement and to be able to be comfortable and happy with the process that's taken place to allow that to, to go to the next step, even though agreement might not have been reached across the board.
[00:13:49 - 00:14:06] Ilana: That's generally important for all public life, I feel absolutely for all process in that sense. So what are some of the big ideas that were imprinted into this master plan and how some of them lived on? Because listeners, we've talked about this before that architecture is about ideas.
[00:14:09 - 00:15:24] Jan: Well, the main idea behind this building is its location. It is located in the wetlands. And so it's an interpretive centre, which means a building where you go to, to learn about the subject matter that the building is about. And the subject matter of this building is the wetlands. The flora and fauna and history and future of the wetlands. And so the idea of the building is that once you're inside, there's a whole lot of information provided to you. And the architectural idea for the building is to. Was to put the building in the wetlands. And so that part of the way that you are learning about the wetlands when you're visiting the building is, is through an immersion in the environment that you're actually in. Rather than reading simply a series of panels and then looking out or later visiting something, you're actually in it. It becomes. It's a bird hide, It's a bird, It's a bird hide, It's a bird hide. Yet the idea of it being hidden, as we'll get to in a minute, I'm sure was changed. It's not a very hidden building. Anyone who's seen it will know that it's not very hidden.
[00:15:24 - 00:15:25] Ilana: Say more.
[00:15:25 - 00:16:47] Jan: And that was part of the other idea about it as well. So there's often this idea in architecture. It's a very popular idea that buildings should look natural and look sustainable, and that will make them better. And we took a different approach. We were interested in the idea that the concept of nature is something that human beings invented to separate themselves from it. We think that human beings are part of nature. The separation of humans on the one hand and nature on the other is what allows us, culturally, for hundreds of years, to just borrow from the environment and not return to it. So we saw the building as a thing that would allow visitors to be immersed in the wetlands, but also to express the. The whole mechanism of viewing to be a device, a visible device, which explained and showed not only the wetlands, but how the act of looking at the wetlands was a thing in and of itself. Much like the idea that when a scientist conducts an experiment, you can't do so without affecting the experiment. Your place in looking at something is part of the thing that you're looking at. And this building seeks to express that.
[00:16:48 - 00:16:58] Ilana: That observation, the visitor's gaze is in many ways the idea. And that's what this purpose of a bird hide is, isn't it? You come in with your binoculars, you sit and you look out onto it.
[00:16:59 - 00:17:42] Jan: But here, also in a bird hide, bird hides. Paul Carter writes about this in his very eloquent review of the project for Architecture Australia. Birdhouses are usually imagined to be things that are not visible. They're blended into the environment, which is odd. Like the. The blending of something into the environment is something that serves humans. Birds aren't making aesthetic decisions about whether something looks right or not. That change is made for the human. And so this building, that Heathville Seafood Wetlands Discovery center, expresses the act of observing as well as being a mechanism for observing.
[00:17:43 - 00:17:45] Ilana: So why did they move the position of it?
[00:17:46 - 00:17:47] Jan: Why did they move the position of it?
[00:17:47 - 00:17:50] Ilana: Yeah, you mentioned that the position changed. It was.
[00:17:51 - 00:18:21] Jan: Oh. From the master plan to where it currently is. Well, it actually remained roughly where it is. It's just that the. The landscape design changed such that the wetlands then came around the building. So in the original master plan, the building is on a bit of fairly solid ground, and it sort of touches the edge of the wet part of the wetlands. It's an odd thing to think of because wetlands don't have very defined edges.
[00:18:21 - 00:18:21] Ilana: Yet.
[00:18:21 - 00:19:12] Jan: In the master plan, you can see a line and it's blue on one side and green on the other. And in that, in that line, in the master plan, the building is like perched on the edge. Whereas where it's currently located, if the. If the rain has been happening in a certain pattern, the building can completely standing in water and the only way to get to it is through the elevated ramp. And so you feel like you're walking out into the wetlands when you're going into it. And so that, that change was. It was a really conscious decision to place the building as one of the things in the wetlands. So these, the. The wetlands that are there now, compared to the enormous and great wetlands that were there pre settlement, this is a very small sliver remaining.
[00:19:12 - 00:19:21] Ilana: They went from Mordialloc to Frankston. For listeners, just visualise that on your Google Maps. From Mordialloc to Frankston. Huge.
[00:19:22 - 00:19:24] Jan: Yeah. That's a long drive.
[00:19:24 - 00:19:28] Ilana: It's a long drive. It's a long bike ride. It's a beautiful bike ride, but it's a long area.
[00:19:29 - 00:20:14] Jan: And so the sliver that's there now has suburban dwellings all around it. And rather than ignore this, what I would describe as a really beautiful juxtaposition between how humans live and the wetlands that are preserved and protected under the Ramsar listing, we thought that was a really amazing condition to actually make a piece of architecture about. So the building in some moments has the image of the shape of the roof of a suburban house, for example. It doesn't shy away from the fact that it is a building building and it is related to the other buildings that are around it because they're part of the same family of things.
[00:20:14 - 00:20:35] Ilana: As I snuck around the building, or as much of that isn't fenced off, it for me was dancing between being something that was washed up in a flood, more organic, and then very suburban. And the first thing that hits you as you come in as these feature water tanks straight through the glass doors that you can see beyond. Can you tell us a bit about those?
[00:20:36 - 00:22:17] Jan: Sorry, what water tanks? I like to pretend that they're not there because they have a sort of slightly. Sort of odd. They seem kind of slightly out of place, which is part of the design change that you experience as you enter the building. You enter in and you see this kind of pile of blocks which are brightly colored, and then you walk past them and round into the building and then the wetlands starts to reveal itself to you through the windows. The building has a remarkable amount of sustainability techniques in performs at a very, very high level. Even now Many years after it was built, it still performs at a very high level. And the measures of what that is are constantly increasing. One of the mechanisms that is in the building is obviously the recycling of water, which those tanks play a part of. But also they play a role as the thermal mass of the building. So they store and stabilize the. One of the things that stabilize the internal temperature of the building. So it's. If the building is cooling down, it's slow to cool down, and if it warms up, it's slow to warm up. This is a principle of passive sustainable design called thermal mass. And they play a role in that. So they're. They're there as part of the experience of the building. They help recycle the rainwater and they also stabilize the temperature of the building, reducing the energy costs and expenditure of carbon to keep it going, such that it is necessary. Shouldn't be any at all if the buildings performing properly.
[00:22:17 - 00:22:22] Ilana: All a good and important service. And I also found them whimsical on the visit.
[00:22:22 - 00:23:56] Jan: It does help when things are whimsical that are also doing a very serious thing. And the building is whimsical. It doesn't have the look and feel of something that is sustainable. There's an enormously popular and persistent movement in architecture. You'll often hear it referred to as touching the earth lightly. And that is a very beautiful sentiment. But the actuality of what that means really infuriates me because construction is a very violent, brutal act. If any building does touch the earth lightly, actually it will blow away. So the only buildings that actually touch the earth lightly are not there anymore. They blow away. And so there's this enormous moving of earth and pouring of things to buildings. A lot of the structure in lower buildings anyway is to hold them down, not to keep them up. And so this building shies away from expressing its sustainable qualities in its aesthetics. It doesn't look like a sustainable building. Its shape and color and aesthetic and attitude come from another set of ideas, while at the same time being a highly sustainable building. I don't think it's necessary or even practical for a building to perform in a sustainable way to then have to look like it's performing in a certain way.
[00:23:56 - 00:24:07] Ilana: I completely agree with you. And I think it's very important that we resist the aestheticization or the creation of an aesthetic around sustainability.
[00:24:08 - 00:24:11] Jan: It might be too late for some.
[00:24:11 - 00:25:05] Ilana: Too late, but that's architecture, right? It's a very diverse practice. It's a very diverse profession. Every architect is different. Everyone's Portfolio and interests are different and those who commission architecture understand that, and they go to work with architects that suit them for their needs and their style. But I'm really interested in sustainability being rooted in a connection to place and sustainable buildings, being beautiful. And for a long time that was a very taboo word in our sector, in our industry. And I think there's many, many moments of this building, despite your resistance towards the water tanks, there's other bits that are incredibly beautiful, particularly the glazing, which also serves a dual function. You've got these wonderful angled windows that provide view over the wetlands, but it's for bird safety and bird protection.
[00:25:05 - 00:25:46] Jan: Yeah, the windows do a number of different things. So many of them are angled towards the ground, and that has a number of effects. One is that when you're standing inside the building looking out over the wetlands, which you're above, the fact that the glazing is leaning away from you at quite a steep angle makes you feel like you're falling into the wetlands. It produces a minor vertiginous effect. And that's part of how people visiting the building end up feeling that they're. They're immersed in the wetlands, because the angle of the glazing drags you down into it.
[00:25:46 - 00:26:01] Ilana: I really like moments like that because people pay a lot of money to walk on a skywalk, to feel a little bit scared, to be elevated, to be part of this nature that they think they're separate from. But this moment of the vertigo induced.
[00:26:01 - 00:28:29] Jan: By the, of the glasses, more effective at that for two reasons. One is when you, when you walk on a glass floor, glass that's that thick gets scratched quite quickly. And so that. And also has a lot of thickness to it, so it's not as transparent as glass normally is. And if glass that's flat on the ground will be reflective as well, because the light's coming from above. But windows that are angled against, away from you don't pick up the light in the same way. So those pieces of glass are far more transparent than glass that picks up light that's either vertical or completely flat does. So you really feel as though the glass is not there. And from the outside, the reason that the glass is tilted down is a very beautiful thing, which is that one of the most effective ways to prevent birds from flying into windows, and the whole point that we're here is to be amongst birds and birds. This building is sighted in the wetlands amongst the birds. And birds are famous for flying into windows that they can't see. And the reason they do that is that windows usually reflect the sky, so the bird will think it's looking at the sky and then suddenly it's dead. And by tilting the glazing down towards the wetland, a bird flying towards it from the outside sees the ground reflected in the window, then flies away from it before it reaches it. So it's a bird protection device. There are two other little windows, what's two pieces of glazing that form a very sharp point that are vertical and don't tilt down. And this is a little moment that you can find you squeeze your way into. If you walk through the area, that corridor that leads to the toilets, which is the green area inside the building. And to prevent birds from flying into that because you can see straight through it, we put a pattern on that. And we borrowed a likeness of it. Not exactly. It borrowed a likeness of the M. C. Escher famous drawing of the graphic bird. So the bird then becomes this icon that gets used as a pattern on the glass. Only the humans know that they're birds, but the birds also see them and then don't fly into it.
[00:28:29 - 00:28:36] Ilana: And they're an opaque decal, or they're the ultraviolet inlays, UV inlays.
[00:28:36 - 00:28:41] Jan: I think they're an opaque decal. But I don't really know the answer to that question off the top of my head.
[00:28:42 - 00:28:43] Ilana: As in, humans can see it.
[00:28:43 - 00:28:46] Jan: Oh, humans, yes. Sorry, yeah. No, humans can see it. Yeah.
[00:28:46 - 00:28:50] Ilana: Sometimes you can get this inlay in skyscraper glass that only the birds can see.
[00:28:50 - 00:28:58] Jan: Right, well, I've just have to make a note now because you've just taught me something I didn't know, which is it's nice not to be fucking authority all the time.
[00:29:01 - 00:30:00] Ilana: I'll add one more thing then about the wetland. You mentioned that it's on the Ramsar listing, but for our listeners that aren't familiar with that term, the Ramsar Convention was signed in 1985, and it means that this is a wetland of international significance and we have an international obligation to protect it. And in many ways, from a policy structure perspective, this sits up, sits up much, much higher than some of the other decisions that can be made for this place. And it's a really powerful thing and really amazing thing to have a Ramsar listed wetland in your local area. So you haven't been there for a while, you haven't been for a walk. Do head down to go have a look. And the friends of Edith Vale Wetlands are often manning the bird hide so you can have a chat and borrow their binoculars and look at all the 200 different species that are really amazing out there. I want to ask about the orange.
[00:30:00 - 00:30:01] Jan: Oh yeah.
[00:30:01 - 00:30:39] Ilana: And I think you may have started a trend in Edith Vale because I saw this exact orange just this week again. And seeing both buildings in one week, it hit me. We've got an Edith Vale orange coming on the Life Saving Club Edith Fell Orange in answer to the famous Melbourne Yellow. And my walking partner who joined me for a stroll when we went down to the d' Thale Wetlands Discovery center noted, oh, is that an orange version of the Vault, the famous yellow peril nicknamed sculpture out the front of Acca. So I'm champing at the bit to know. Tell me about the orange.
[00:30:40 - 00:34:03] Jan: Well, it's like many of the things in our work, there are layers. There are layers to it. So yeah, the, the journey that referencing Ron Robertson's swans, the Vault has in many buildings in Melbourne is ever present in our mind. It somehow slips in. And the first architect practice that started doing that, Ashton Raggett McDougal Architects both Paul and I worked for when we were younger. So we kind of, we caught that habit there. And it sneaks in, never quite as explicitly as it does in the work of arm, but so that was in our mind. And it's a sort of an inverted version of pieces of that. And that maybe explains some of the angularity of those orange pieces that form the middle and the undercroft of the building. But also, again, it's this idea of a trying to reframe the understanding of what a sustainable aesthetic is. There are so many brilliant and bright and vibrant colors. We don't have any of this particular animal I'm about to mention in the Ramseye Wetlands, which is the baboon's ass is one of the most brightly colorful things that you can see. And those, when you, if you talk about quote unquote, sustainable colors, you normally end up with browns and greens and beiges. You won't find any of those on the baboon's arse. So why can't we draw from all the colors that are in this thing that we've called nature? And so we looked to the flora and fauna that is in the wetlands, not the baboon. And there are a number of birds. We have the, we have the orange beak of the Caspian terns, also the orange neck of the Leeuwin's rail. These oranges jump out, they're really, really bright. And we know that in birds, often colors are about how the birds engage in the acts of mating and procreation and so this bright orange is. Is part of our mechanism of reframing the aesthetic of sustainability, but also it's the mating call of the building. It's like the Edithfield Seaford Wetlands Discovery Center. It's mating season. And look, you can see because it's showing off its orange. And then the. The other thing that was really interesting about the oranges, we were really interested in its recognizability. It's a color that's used to warn people of things. And you can walk in anywhere if you've got an orange jacket on. And it's really interesting to hear that it's been picked up on other things. And so we wanted to build on the myth of this color and this little moment of spark that it played and somehow landed in this small part of this building. And so for the official opening of the building, everyone in our office all had their nails painted in that orange. There are all these photos of us in the opening showing off our fingernails.
[00:34:03 - 00:35:06] Ilana: I shared that picture from your Instagram onto radio architecture story earlier, earlier today, just to set the tone that I would be chasing after the orange question. I think. I think that's very important and I think it's a really important conversation to talk about the need to resist this idea of polite colours. Beiges and grays and boring tones that sell well, that are good for the market, that blend in, that blend in with the sand dunes. The council loves a color like that. Sometimes there's an offshoot of conversations on such color with neighbourhood character. But color doesn't threaten your sustainability. In fact, it probably enhances it because it creates a connection to where you are. And now more of this orange is springing up around Edith Fell. And we'll keep an eye out, see if we can document the emergence of orange across the Long beach suburbs. If I see more, I might even start a little highlights nugget on the Instagram reel.
[00:35:06 - 00:36:37] Jan: I mean, aesthetics are very didactic and, well, they tell a story, they polarize people. People will feel strongly about something one way or another. And so one way to maybe try and approach a broader agreement is to make things less noticeable. And I think that some of where this palette of muted colors as being perceived as more acceptable or more, it's just less people will notice it. So it's less likely that someone will make a comment about its existence one way or another. But I think rather than getting into an argument about aesthetics, because once something becomes polarized, the argument simply gets stronger and stronger, I think a nicer way into that conversation is through the color of the birds. If we told the birds that the orange of their beaks or the backs of their necks or their breasts. There's no orange on the breasts in the birds in this wetland. But that's obviously a famous place for birds to have really bright colors. If we told them that their colors were not appropriate, they'd be horrified. Well, yeah, quite. What's the bird, what's a bird to do? Go and get your feathers dyed? Well, it's not going to happen. Like you could go and get your feathers all dyed to beige. But then like where, like what use is that during mating season?
[00:36:38 - 00:37:06] Ilana: Exactly, exactly right. I wanted to ask one more question about the challenge of construction on the wetland. We mentioned tonight that it is a very dynamic space. It is in the water. It's not just on that edge of the green blue line in the master plan. And I think that's one of the most exciting successes actually in the sighting of the project is that it's very much in it and amongst it. What was it like building on an active living listed wetland?
[00:37:07 - 00:38:56] Jan: It's quite challenging. Like a lot of the tests for whether concrete is ready to be servicided, to be ready to build on the next stage on it is, you know, has it been exposed to dry air for a long enough time? And you know, we're building underwater a lot of the time. So the types of construction that the engineers had to specify and resort to is the type of construction, types of construction techniques that you might find in dam building or bridge building to get the footing set up. And that seems like an extreme thing. But it's, it's just, it's a, it's a technique for working with, for working with water and structure. It was that, that in itself was not, not a particularly challenging thing because those techniques are actually available. It was really more. The challenging thing was the access. And that's not because the access was difficult, but just that the access was so damaging to like the site under construction and what's there now or even immediately after construction had finished. It's almost unrecognizable. When Paul Carter wrote his review, which I mentioned earlier, he was visiting the building shortly after it, it had been completed. And he writes about it as this in, he means this in a positive light that the expression of the building is really confronting to be confronted with this representation of the looking device. It was far more acute then because all the landscape that's immediately around the building is designed in, to be there to grow up around it. And it really wasn't there. It really did look very, very bald. And that was from the process of construction.
[00:38:57 - 00:39:00] Ilana: Like a bit of a pluck chicken on its little legs.
[00:39:00 - 00:39:02] Jan: That's a very, very apt metaphor.
[00:39:03 - 00:39:08] Ilana: Yeah, like a lot of Slavic fairy tales have a witch's hut on chicken feet.
[00:39:10 - 00:39:17] Jan: The other part of that also is the, is the glass reinforced concrete panels. But you might have a whole separate question.
[00:39:17 - 00:39:32] Ilana: No, go ahead, go ahead. Absolutely. I'm super interested in them. And the grc, It's a different formulation in the concrete mix that makes it, helps it be lighter. Right. In the global.
[00:39:32 - 00:41:12] Jan: Fiberglass reinforcement, as listeners will probably know, concrete in its. With works very well in compression and not very well in tension. And so all concrete construction has reinforcement in it. And over. Over the decades or centuries, even lots of different things have been used to give concrete its tensile reinforcement. The most commonly used substance now is steel, obviously, but horsehair was once used. And glass reinforced concrete is concrete that has its tensile reinforcement from fiberglass. So it's still concrete, but the thing that keeps it from pulling apart is very fine glass fibers, which means you can get very thin and very lightweight concrete and you can have a much finer amount of control over the texture and the corner of the details and the finish on the concrete. And so the facades of this building, some of them are windows obviously, but there are panels made of. We'll call it grc. So I don't have to say the whole phrase glass reinforced concrete over and over again. The GRC panels, which is simply a slightly unusual type of precast concrete panel, they have precast concrete panels which are mounted onto the building and form the part of the part of the seal of the building. And anyone who's seen the building will know that it has a very, very distinctive and deeply textured pattern on that building.
[00:41:12 - 00:41:18] Ilana: It's really deep. I was actually shocked by how deep it was until I got up close and that.
[00:41:18 - 00:41:39] Jan: That there was a. There was a whole. That was one of the most challenging things about the. About the project. It was very important to us that that had depth because the building is quite boxy. And we wanted to use the texture of the panels to give it its porosity, if you like. So it's suburban and very openly building.
[00:41:39 - 00:41:41] Ilana: Like in its form to help add layers to it.
[00:41:41 - 00:45:12] Jan: And we wanted it to have layers and complexity in the surface of the building. And so we wrote into the tender documents that the. The panels which had not been designed at the tender stage but had been allowed for, would have A certain depth. And there are lots of different ways of making. Making molds for GSE panels. The most expensive and the way that gives you the most control is to make silicon rubber molds. But the budgets that we had access to didn't allow for that. So these are actually made from timber moulds, and timber molds are. They are far more susceptible to complexities of breakage when you pull the mold away from the. From the. From the concrete. And because of that, you can't make them very deep. And also, you have to have this thing called a release angle. So it means you can't have vertical lines in the depth. You can have vertical lines in depth if you've got a silicon mould, because you can peel the mould away from the concrete after the concrete set. But with the timber mold, the separation is completely linear because both the timber and the concrete are pretty much inflexible. So to do this, we. We utilized our offices. Very, very precise control that we're able to have over geometry to. To lock in a very specific release angle, which was as steep as we could go while still knowing that the timber would actually release. And so there's a depth there that's otherwise very difficult to achieve in that. In that complexity it was. The release angle was so steep in this instance that the contractor would not produce the shop drawings. They refused to guarantee that the moulds would actually release. And so we had to. Well, we didn't have to. We wanted to. We put our hands on our hearts and said, we'll guarantee that. And. Which is an enormous. It's an enormous leap of confidence in our own ability to control a very, very precise geometry, because we don't. We don't have experience actually making GAC panels. We just understand the principle of it is tied to a certain angle. And if we could control that angle with precision and not very much room for error, then we were happy to guarantee that the panels wouldn't break. And the. They didn't. We didn't break a single panel when we were releasing the panels from their molds. The other really interesting thing about the panels is even looking closely at the facade of the building and studying it. The pattern that goes around the building, the texture of it seems to be continuously varied. It looks completely organic, but it is, in fact, highly repetitive. There are only three moulds across the whole building. I think there was something from memory. I think there are 32 panels across the whole building. Three molds only, and they repeat. And the pattern is designed in such A way so as to hide the fact that the repetition is taking place. If you look at it really carefully, you can see the repeating hand. But you really have to work to find it.
[00:45:12 - 00:45:13] Ilana: I did study it. I had to.
[00:45:13 - 00:45:19] Jan: Did you find it? Did you find the repetition? Yeah. Even, like, when I go back to it, I still have to look and go, oh, there it is.
[00:45:19 - 00:45:28] Ilana: But it's really seamless. It's incredibly effective. And how many goes did you get out of the timber mold? Or was it a bit more sacrificial?
[00:45:28 - 00:45:40] Jan: Oh, no, we got no good. No, it's not sacrificial. I mean, there was a limit because it does degrade, but the. We didn't have to sacrifice any molds in the making of the building.
[00:45:41 - 00:45:41] Ilana: Wonderful.
[00:45:41 - 00:45:42] Jan: Yeah.
[00:45:43 - 00:45:46] Ilana: And what's the image? What's informed there?
[00:45:47 - 00:45:47] Jan: The image is.
[00:45:48 - 00:45:50] Ilana: You're not giving away too many secrets.
[00:45:50 - 00:47:14] Jan: No, no. There isn't really a secret to give away. It's not a. It's not a highly. It's not a representational image. I've heard people describe it as looking like elephant skin. And if that's how it seems, then that's how it is. But that's not. That was not the intent. Intent was to have porosity and for it. For the building to cast shadows on itself, for the building to have a kind of a mystery to its texture, the texture that resides on its surface. And the process of making it was almost. It was a very intuitive one. We had this working method in the office, which came about through years of working together and also years of teaching with each other and also with our students. And someone who had been one of our students who later became an architect worked for us. Jessica in. Put an enormous amount of time into working with us on those panels. And there was this long period in the office where she would look at an image and turn it into a height map and then create a series of agents which would then move around the height map and form relations to each other. And then this would then start to make this pattern. We're kind of like inventing a type of. A new type of ocean movement or something.
[00:47:14 - 00:47:22] Ilana: It does look very aquatic to me. Just for the listeners, Jan's describing a 3D modeling method. This is something our software can allow us to do.
[00:47:23 - 00:48:16] Jan: Yep. And. But it's a 3D modeling method which is very. It's very loose. It's not like you push a thing there, and that happens. Like you're kind of. It's like trying to make something with a thick soup. If you like the control is at like third, fourth, fifth hand. And so the process in the office was very beautiful. Jessica would work and invest her own intellectual ideas and energies and methods into getting it to a certain state. And they will sit around and look at it. And because we'd all been working together for so long, there was very little conversation. We sort of look at it and we go. And then just know that mean that maybe it needed to be a bit more like something else. And she would then play around with some more and stir the soup a bit. Yeah, it was.
[00:48:16 - 00:48:17] Ilana: A lot of.
[00:48:17 - 00:49:10] Jan: It was. A lot of. It was designed through playing. It was using the ideas that we had that we were interested in and the techniques that we knew, but using them in a way that came out through our bodies and the tools of the computer, almost like muscle memory. So it didn't make sense to go, oh, it needs to be bigger or smaller or longer. It was very much a discussion of shrugging and harrumphing and. And mmm and mmm. That went on for weeks. And then after this, like strange, muted, non verbal, yet so, yet also weighted with intellectual content. But that was not coming out in an intellectual way. It was coming out through our bodies, not through our language. Then we then ended up with a pattern that we were all very, very happy with. It was like.
[00:49:11 - 00:49:31] Ilana: And you knew. You knew in that moment. That was the one very, very joyous process. It sounds as well, the creative process can be difficult and stressful and arduous, but it sounds like there was a lot of joy in there for yourself and your team. I wanted to ask about another one of your creative projects about lost tablets.
[00:49:31 - 00:49:32] Jan: Oh, yeah.
[00:49:32 - 00:49:48] Ilana: That comes across as being very joyous, very whimsical, very serious as well. But out of child's enjoyed materials, out of Lego. Say, say some more about the lost tablets project.
[00:49:49 - 00:50:21] Jan: I've spoken about this a number of times when I know that people are not looking at them. And it's an interesting thing to do because a lot of the tension of them is a visual thing. They are very serious objects. They are objects that are made using the language of monuments. They use columns and arches and capitals and bases to create a sense that they have an importance to them. They have authority and mass.
[00:50:21 - 00:50:23] Ilana: How big is each sculpture yet?
[00:50:23 - 00:51:46] Jan: They're quite small. They're only about A4 in size. If you imagine an A4 piece of paper standing up on its end, they are about that big. They're tall. A four tall and quite thin. Yet they have this. They look like they are bigger than they are because of the language of geometry that they have. And so this earnestness to them is then tickled by how big they actually are. But even that doesn't really create the tension of them. The tension of them comes when you realize that they're all made from second hand lego. They're made from a children's toy, which is not modif. The objects, the blocks that they're made from are all, they're all proprietary pieces. Proprietary pieces. They're all second and they haven't been modified in any way yet. They're put together in a way that does not look like they've been made out of lego. Now there are so many millions of things that are made out of lego. If you think of something, someone's made one out of lego. But these objects have a different quality because, because of their small size and the relationship between the size of a LEGO block and the size of them. They're low resolution and so they have this kind of muscular tension rather than being this expression of anything that can be expressed with lego. They look muscular and dense.
[00:51:47 - 00:52:18] Ilana: They're very like lo fi, solid little things. You look at these solid little sculptures about the size of an A4 piece, but there's like a story in them. You know what? I've only ever seen one in image. I must confess, I've never seen one in person. And I always look at them and I think, oh, that's a story, that's a cave, that's a, that's a column, that's a labyrinth. And you give them these names that also suggest that there's a story associated. So what are some of your favorite names or some of your favorite tablets?
[00:52:18 - 00:55:23] Jan: The, the familiarity that you're experiencing comes from an idea that I'm very, very interested in. It's not my idea, but it's a very interesting idea. And the idea is that if you imagine for a moment a whole other discipline, if you imagine the field of music, even though I sing badly, I'm very happy to sing in the shower. And in that moment, I'm very happy to imagine for a moment that I have most wonderful musical abilities. I might not tell anyone, and I might never actually subject anyone to have to actually listen to that. But everyone has this what if moment. Even if you don't have the what if moment. Most people aren't as delusional as I am, hopefully. But everyone has a relationship to music. You can feel, feel the joy of music without having any knowledge of how to make it or how to play it. And so there is an innate relationship that I think all people have to music. I've got a friend who is deaf, completely deaf, and she loves going dancing because the music, which is wavelength, still finds its way to her just through other, other senses. And then, if you think about architecture, there are very few people alive in the world today, and this has been true for quite a long time now, who were not born in a building. So from the moment you're born, you're in a room and you start to develop an understanding of your relationship to the environment that you suddenly find yourself in, as this moment where you realize that you're breathing oxygen and not liquid anymore, you're in a room and the room makes an impression on you. And every single room and space and building and city that you are ever in forms your understanding of architecture. So that means that all people have a relationship and an understanding of architecture. Some people go on to study it and develop language around it. But because the language and ideas of architecture are very expressed almost exclusively through language and intellect, it's difficult for people to, I think, realize the memory they have in their body of architecture. But it's there for everybody. And these objects are doing that. The toyness of them makes them approachable. And so it's not saying to you must come and look at this piece of architecture, which, if you're not comfortable with the whole idea of the intellectual concepts of architecture, you might go, well, I don't want to look at that. And they just speak to you, because everyone has that knowledge somewhere in them.
[00:55:23 - 00:55:26] Ilana: Absolutely everyone has spatial intelligence.
[00:55:28 - 00:55:41] Jan: That's the title of a book that was written by my dad in which he describes that idea. And I think it's safe to say it's his idea. That's a book by Leon van Skyk, by the way, if you want to follow up on that.
[00:55:42 - 00:56:26] Ilana: Well, the book summarising the exhibition Architecture Without Architects. But I think that's very important. And one of the parallel motivations for this radio show is that everyone has innate understanding and knowing within them. And sometimes the profession hasn't been terribly inclusive of sharing these ideas, but because we are connected to the people who use our buildings, to the people who commission our buildings. Architects in the profession can't exist in a silo. I like how your tablets give people a way into that a little bit in a safer way, in a more comfortable toy, like play like way.
[00:56:27 - 00:56:47] Jan: It's possible to be cynical about how architects speak. In Architects Speak they complicate things. But I think anyone who invests Time working on something will develop a shorthand for talking about it. And so that's like any group of people develop a language that is specific to their own interests.
[00:56:48 - 00:56:49] Ilana: That's true.
[00:56:49 - 00:57:07] Jan: And it's not that I don't think it's a deliberate act of being opaque. It just happens through specialization and it's quite easy to undo as well. Those words all mean something. You just have to spend a minute trying to put them in non architectural language and still make sense.
[00:57:07 - 00:57:33] Ilana: Exactly. When you know them well enough. I find that all the guests on the show are quite able to do that as well. You're interested in how people use their words and how people write as well. And one of the series you've curated and Concepts just want to quickly, before we wrap up, touch on that one. It's a semi regular talk presentation series with artists talking about their work. Is that right?
[00:57:35 - 00:59:06] Jan: So it began as an interest in the type of thinking that happens when people are writing something. I think I had as a younger person a very silly idea in my head that if you wrote something the way that you did it was you wrote it in your mind and when it was finished you sat down and typed it up. And I thought that for a very long time. And it was a barrier to me ever writing something. And then I got to a point in my life where I really had to write something that was, well, comparative to things I'd written before was quite long and I had to face this challenge. And I put it off for a very long time because I couldn't finish the 30,000 word piece in my head. It's hard to hold 30,000 pieces words in your head. And so then I just had to start writing. And then suddenly I realized that the act of writing is the act of thinking. This phrase that people often use when they say they're thinking out loud, like writing is thinking out loud. And as you write, the thing that you think you're writing will change through the process of writing. And what for me was quite a large epiphany and is probably truism for almost anyone who's ever written anything. I suddenly got interested in the processes that people went through, what they discovered when. When they were trying to do something.
[00:59:07 - 00:59:11] Ilana: I don't know if you're allowed to have favorites, but do you have a favorite talk that's come up over the years?
[00:59:12 - 01:01:18] Jan: I made some notes about that, actually. I just need to get them quickly. Sorry to refer to them, but that's because it's a very difficult question. I showed some Friends around my art collection at home the other day. And a question I always get asked is, which is your favorite artwork? And the question, the answer to that is a very. It's a very easy one to rebuff that because you simply say, ah, you're asking me to choose between my children. How could you do such a thing? And then the person said, all right, well, if there was a fire, which one would you take with me? It's like, oh, you know, you can't use the children one as a defense for that. So then I had to think about it. And so I did. I did anticipate this question. And so I thought about some of them. I thought some of them. One of the ones was a talk about a very emotional, personal story. It was being told by a Wembo Wemba Gundajmara presenter, and she was telling the very, very traumatic story of her family and the trauma of settlement in Australia. And it was a very memorable presentation for me because in question time, in the format of these talks, I often start the questions going. I thought I would do a very clever thing and try and relate to her story by sharing some of my story, which was an incredibly foolish thing to do. And there was this very dramatic moment where I was told to sit down and shut the fuck up. And this was being told to the presenter of the talk. And so I did. I realized that actually that. That. That was one of the moments where I realized that one of the most powerful things that I could do as a. As a convener or as a person of privilege is to just get out of the fucking way and bear witness. And it was really. It was really refreshing to be told that to my face. And so I did. I sat down and shut up. And things got better after I stopped talking.
[01:01:19 - 01:01:22] Ilana: Well, we learned lessons in all sorts of different ways.
[01:01:22 - 01:02:15] Jan: Some of the other ones that were really interesting were Jesse Bullivant's talk really stuck in my head. And in that talk, they spoke about the power of words. And in that talk, Jesse spoke about a radio show in which the presenters had a competition that they was a sponsored competition. And it was called, and I'm really just paraphrasing from Jesse's talk now, it was called hold your Wii for a Wii and remember those Wii things like a computer sports the competitors to PlayStation. That's right. And so in this radio show, if you could hold your. She could not go the toilet for the longest, then you won and someone playing this game died.
[01:02:17 - 01:02:18] Ilana: Oh, my goodness.
[01:02:18 - 01:02:48] Jan: Because they caused a kind of toxic shock in their system by holding on to the desire to go to the bathroom just to win this toy. And so there was a really interesting story about the power. Like, that was just a stupid word game and it killed someone. And so the words have, like, real, real meaning in the world. The sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me is just not true.
[01:02:48 - 01:04:35] Ilana: Yeah, that's absolutely right. Well, Jan, thank you so much for your words tonight and for your time for joining us on this program. For listeners, we're already over a little bit, but right before the closing credits earlier this week, we took some field recordings around this building, around the Edithfeld Discovery center and across the wetlands. So just play some of that for you now. Thanks for joining me for another evening of radio architecture with Alana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrion studio on Bonurrung Country. You can replay the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting community radio. Take care. Hi, I'm Dr. Floyd Gomes, aka Atticus Health with Dr. Floyd, you might recall. And it's great to be here at radiocaram.
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public space transport engineering active travel bikes

7 | July 19, 2023

James Laing on Healthy Streets, active transport & placemaking

James Laing is an active travel specialist who has worked in the transport industry for over 20 years and is the national practice lead for cycle planning and design at Stantec. His work is focused on improving accessibility and placemaking within local communities and he is a big champion of the Healthy Streets approach to achieving this. He is a trusted advisor to both local and state government clients and is a regular presenter at national conferences.

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James Laing on Healthy Streets, active transport & placemaking
[00:00:03 - 00:00:31] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
[00:00:46 - 00:02:17] Ilana: I'm Ilana Razbash and this is Radio Architecture. Good evening and welcome back for another evening of Radio Architecture. We are broadcasting to you live from the Radio Karam studio on beautiful Bunurong Country. I'm really excited to talk to my guest tonight, James Lang, an active transport engineer who specializes in active travel and has worked in the transport industry for over 20 years and is the national practice lead for cycle planning and Design at Stantec. His work focuses on improving accessibility and placemaking within local communities and he's a big champion for the healthy streets approach to achieving this. James is a trusted advisor to both local and state government clients and is a regular presenter at national conferences. In his free time, he's also a broadcaster on Radio Carom, running a regular music show called Twisted Melon, where which is back on the airwaves tonight at 8:30pm for our listeners. And I am sure there'll be lots of questions this evening, so please don't forget, you can text us in the studio. The line is 049-321-3831. Have all your urban planning, active transport, walking, cycling questions ready for James tonight. Welcome. Thanks so much for joining me.
[00:02:17 - 00:02:20] James: Thank you. Thanks for the plug for my show later as well.
[00:02:20 - 00:02:30] Ilana: I'm sure it'd be lots of fun as it is every week. Well, James, my first question is always, what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:02:32 - 00:03:18] James: That would have been my imagine. It'd be my play school. I remember my play school back in Penrith in Cumbria, in the Lake District, Northern England, where I'm from. And I remember being this old blue building. It feels like it was a wooden building and I remember going in the gates and there'd be a little sandpit in the back garden and I don't know why, but I feel like one of my earliest memories is actually trying to paint a Dalek from Doctor who in that building. And I remember pulling the paintbrush away from the paper and I couldn't understand why I wasn't like the gun thing that's on the front of the garlic, why I couldn't paint this 3D garlic as I saw it on the television, this Dalek. So I'm pulling this, I'm painting, I'm pulling the brush away from the paper and my brain just Wouldn't understand why. Why I couldn't paint a 3D.
[00:03:18 - 00:03:20] Ilana: You can now. With a 3D pen.
[00:03:20 - 00:03:35] James: Yeah. Yeah, now I can do it. But I just remember that. I just remember that. Yeah, I must have been three years old and I just remember that building really, really well and just have a. There's something inside me that's got, like, some nostalgia for it. Yeah, I think that's probably the one that's.
[00:03:35 - 00:03:59] Ilana: That's a really nice memory. And then painting buildings, painting the urban realm, that's found its way into your work, where accessibility in public is really important. And most people think of painting buildings as a mural, but sometimes we also paint sidewalks and pedestrian crossings. Do you have some thoughts on that? Is that actually a good thing?
[00:04:00 - 00:04:56] James: If you'd asked me a year ago, I'd have been a huge advocate for painting crossings, like putting dots on crossings and tactical urbanism and. And all that kind of thing. And I've presented at conferences, I think, where I've shown examples and said it was brilliant. But then after reading some research in the UK a year or so ago, where there's actually a lot of people really, really struggle when you do this. People with, like, who might be prone to epilepsy or dementia, they really struggle with it. They get very confused with these kind of crossings and these kind of treatments. So there is a place for it. But you've got to be very, very careful and you've got to consider that. And like anything, you know, you need to be speaking to all the stakeholders, not the standard stakeholders, and getting a real cross section of society to input into any designs you're doing, to make sure what you're doing is inclusive. I don't think there's any such thing as an inclusive design. There's always somebody that loses out a little bit. But you've got to do the best you can and speak to everybody and make the best informed decision.
[00:04:56 - 00:05:04] Ilana: Absolutely. And also think about who's not in the room, who's not being represented, whose safety or lived experience is really important.
[00:05:04 - 00:05:43] James: Definitely. A great example of that is I often talk about. I don't really like shared paths in an urban environment because, you know, they're not very good for walking or cycling, to be honest. And we look at counts and we get counts of people walking, people cycling, but no one's asking that elderly lady who lives at number 52 who doesn't leave the house, why she's not leaving the house. Because she's worried, because there's people cycling on the footpath outside her House. So, you know, that's having a lot of impacts on her mental health, her connection with society. So there's a lot of missing data and I want to say data, I'm always going to say data, even though I should be saying data. In Australia there's a lot of missing data in everything we do and it's quite a difficult thing to capture.
[00:05:45 - 00:06:25] Ilana: There's a lot of stories that are left out of our city and that's one of the biggest arguments for diversity in any profession, especially our line of work. Where you're a transport engineer, I'm an architect, we're very privileged to be crafting the public realm and I think over the years there's many discussions about how do you make sure enough people in the room sharing their voices and also knowing how to listen to others. So how are some of the ways that you've been able to motivate council clients or state government clients that you've worked with? What have been some of your sort of success stories in that way?
[00:06:25 - 00:08:34] James: Yeah, look, it's probably been easier back in the UK than it has here, mainly because a lot of my work was in London and when Boris Johnson was a mayor of London, there was political will there to kind of, you know, make healthy streets was part of the mayor of London's framework and it was adopted by, you know, by the mayor of London there. So there was political will. And the mayor would say, okay, we're now going to, you know, we're going to put 12 cycle routes in into the city, Big cycle superhighways as they were called at the time, which is a terrible name, but that's what we chose and we went ahead and did it. And here, you know, all the councils have their own little borders, they've got their own councils and there's not one person who's overseeing all that who's making this call saying, well, this is what we're doing across the city from Malvern to, you know, Maribyr, this is what we do. We're putting this big corridor in. It just doesn't really work that way. So the lack of political will there, and there's so much opposition at a local level like Port Phillip and Glenyra might want to do two completely different things on the same street. So where do you go? You know, nothing happens, you keep going around in circles. But as far as success stories go, I was involved in the pop up bike lane program and it was a mixed bag what we got on the street, I'll be honest. But what we did on Heidelberg Road was, was pretty amazing and we got buy in from all the councils and the approach there was. It's a trial, so it's a live consultation where a lot of my work historically might have been. You know, you do design, you show it to a council, you show it to the community and say, what do you think in this? And straight away they're on the back foot, the defensive because they see change taking something away. But when you're kind of testing something, trialing something, and this is where the low traffic neighbourhoods in the UK have done a really good job. I think it's a live consultation and you're getting feedback all the time and you're adjusting as you need to be. And we did that in Heidelberg Road. You know, we, we put something in, we took out all the parking, etc. There was some parking that had to have had to come back, some loading that had to come back for the sake of the businesses. So we, you know, we adjusted the design and incorporated it all back in. And so that was, that was a good success story. And hopefully that, you know, that shows some precedence because what I'm finding in Australia, it's all about precedence. If you haven't got local precedents, you're not going to get anything done. So we're chipping away, trying to get that presence and making. Just making it harder for people to say no.
[00:08:34 - 00:08:55] Ilana: Yeah, you need a really good example. I think car culture is so deep in the public consciousness in our society that people can't imagine otherwise where from what I'm aware the data says that if you actually improve the urban realm in front of shops and if that means removing parking, but you make it better, people stay longer and spend more money.
[00:08:55 - 00:10:29] James: Oh, 100%. I was chatting about this the other day, so I do a lot of my work does involve asking, should we be removing this parking and doing something better with it? But what I struggle with a little bit with advocates especially, is quite often people are too general and everything is site specific. And I wouldn't say you've got to move parking everywhere. Where I used to live in Brighton east, there was this little ice cream shop off North Road. North Road's a really busy, you know, really busy road and there's a little ice cream shop and another shop and they had a few parking spaces outside. But that was like one place where I'd said, yeah, they will really struggle if we remove this parking. We didn't necessarily have the density around the shop. It wasn't a really walkable kind of place. So I would have said, no, we probably shouldn't remove the parking there, or we can, but they are probably not going to make it. But you go somewhere like Church street in Brighton, lovely street, you know, very fancy, loads of parking behind the shops. That could be an amazing place. And all it is is a traffic sewer of cars going down to the roundabout, turning around, coming back up, going down, coming back up, trying to find a parking space, angled parking outside the shops. So you just crawling along that street in your car and it's just such a missed opportunity and it's a very difficult thing to implement. And I understand the fear, of course. It's like parking outside my shops. They're going to spend hundreds and put in the boot. They won't do that on a bike. They won't do that if they're walking and trying to convince people. The longer people stay in a place, the more they will spend, the more they will tell people about the place, the more other people will come, the better you're going to be. It's very difficult, but we'll get there, we'll win in the end, I think.
[00:10:30 - 00:10:36] Ilana: Absolutely. That image of Church Street, Brighton, is also very visceral. People get frustrated and they honk the horn.
[00:10:36 - 00:10:37] James: Yeah.
[00:10:37 - 00:10:38] Ilana: And that's not really what.
[00:10:39 - 00:10:43] James: It's a great one. It's got the bones of a great street, but it's ruined.
[00:10:43 - 00:10:57] Ilana: People wonder and hope for our Long beach shopping strips around this local area. What. What ideas come to mind for you? What. What would you do if you could wave your magic pencil over?
[00:10:57 - 00:11:53] James: It's a tricky one because if you look at, you know, how we assess streets using, like, movement and place framework, it's an appearing highway, it's a movement corridor, It's a strong movement corridor. But saying that, you know, the new freeway opened a couple of years ago, so that's a movement corridor, and then what station street kind of in between? Because that's kind of. Kind of a movement corridor as well. And then you've got train line there. But for me, that. That's a good example of the parking. There's quite a bit of parking behind there and I think them shops would benefit enormously. And it doesn't have to be the whole strip, but getting some parklets in, extending the outdoor dining space, giving people more of a reason to stay, getting some landscaping in them spaces as well. Because you need a little bit of a green wall there, I think. I mean, you can't. We've got the train line there. We can't do anything about that, um, unfortunately, in my opinion, you know, there was a decision made for the, the trench, for the level crossing there, but everybody lives the other side of that trench. So the permeability is appalling.
[00:11:53 - 00:11:54] Ilana: It's a wall. Yeah.
[00:11:54 - 00:12:04] James: So this morning I went to Woolworths at 7:30 and I went up the station, I came over the other side and I jumped over the fence as I often do, and then just walked across and went to Woolworths.
[00:12:04 - 00:12:25] Ilana: For our listeners, permeability basically means how easily can you cross from one side, side to another, how easily can you move or travel through something? It's just the, the density. And in this context the railway line creates a barrier and that, that fencing along Chelsea that really quite upsets the community particularly bad in that zone, which.
[00:12:25 - 00:13:46] James: Is where the crossings are, isn't it? And I actually understand why, why they're where they are. They, the spacing of them is correct, but it's almost one. Like we could have had one less and put one where people really want to cross the road. But then the ice cream guy's probably happy because he's got a crossing ride outside his shop. But to answer your question, yeah, I mean, look, it'd be very difficult to declassify that road, I feel, because it is a, it is part of the Nepean Highway. So I think it's really looking at kind of just trying to extend the space, remove some parking, getting some parklets in, that kind of thing. But one thing, I actually used that shopping strip at Chelsea in a Healthy street presentation that I often do because it's actually got the bones of a healthy street and without jumping ahead, Healthy Streets is really, it's a framework for trying to improve place making and putting public health at the forefront of all planning and design decisions. But there's a lot of metrics that go into it and it's stuff like having shelter, having water bubblers, having places to, you know, sit, stop and rest, you know, bike parking, that kind of thing, having fairly wide footpaths. And that street actually has all that. It has a lot of good stuff about it, but it's just tired and it's noisy and there's a lot of noise pollution kind of, and traffic pollution there. So trying to distance that separation where people are spending time to where the cars are going past would be a. Would be great. But I think it has to start with the parking lane.
[00:13:46 - 00:13:51] Ilana: For me, it's all certainly possible. We've got those bones there.
[00:13:51 - 00:13:53] James: Yeah, no, definitely.
[00:13:54 - 00:14:41] Ilana: It's all not that, not that far away. But that idea of removing parking is quite similar to what my first guest on this show, Dr. Damian Williams, brought us, a precedent in Lancaster, California. Their condition was of course different. They didn't have the railway line kind of boxing them in, but they took five lanes down to, down to two. And with this central promenade. But it's good to have these sorts of ambitions and these sorts of visions for our public realm. And there's so much data and research. So I'm wondering, can you add a bit more on what's the economic benefit to a city, to a local council, to local government area to have more active streets and.
[00:14:41 - 00:16:31] James: Yeah, well, I mean, there's different ways of attacking it. I mean, the first thing is, I mean, we should be far place and you said yourself, you know, people, more people, more people spending time, more people spending money. I mean, that's. There's a natural economic benefit there. Or you can go longer term where you're prioritizing walking, cycling and getting more people active, the health benefits to them, but onto the health service. Like there was some studies done. If you look at the World Health Organization, you're talking billions in pretty much all the countries. If you can improve people walking and cycling, get more people. The lack of the people getting diabetes, heart disease, etc. When they're older saves the health service an absolute fat fortune. And I have never heard anyone talk about that in a kind of business case, the saving on the tax dollar, it's unbelievable. It's huge. You know, it's billions and yes, it's in the future, but it's just setting you up for, you know, for generations to come. So that side alone's worth doing it. And there's always the thing with the, you know, the traders etc, and how much benefit and people really, really struggle to, to see you cut if you remove parking, that it will lead to, you know, their business doing quite well. But there is a lot of evidence behind it and there's been quite a few surveys done in Melbourne where people always overestimate how many people come by car and how much people spend by car. But again, everything's site specific, you know, I mean, a bridal shop's not probably not going to do great if you get rid of all your car parking, dry cleaners, maybe not so much. You've got to try and look at these things collectively and then try and do what you can to help the businesses that, you know, really do need it. And that includes loading as well. So it's not, it's not just A blanket remove all. But yeah, there's, there's economical, economical benefits to providing just a better place, people spending more time, people enjoying the space and the long term benefits as well. It's going to have a huge, you know, financial savings and your tax dollar.
[00:16:31 - 00:17:22] Ilana: Absolutely. Your point about it being site specific is really, really critical, especially in the suburbs where the housing stock often gets built and painted with this broad brush and communities get built with a broad brush and people also all get lumped into one basket that they think they're not motivated. But this part of town, city of Kingston has some incredibly motivated, engaged, educated and involved members of the community as well. And so I wonder about why, why is it so hard sometimes for people, do you think, to visualize or I mean not everyone has a visual thought, but to really imagine change. Why do you think change can be difficult?
[00:17:23 - 00:18:17] James: Yeah, that's a good question. I guess you've been doing something for so long, the thought of it's that fear of something being taken away, whether you're going to miss it or not. And I think a kind of good example would be a modal filter like where you basically, you know, you might close the road but you still allow people to cycle and walk through. But it might be close to cars now there are thousands of these around that have been there for years and years, cul de sacs with little cut throughs through. But you try and implement something like that now and all hell breaks loose. And people are talking about my accessibility, I can't get to my house anymore, which is never true. I mean it might take another 45 seconds, another minute, that kind of thing. But the result is they live on a super quiet street and the kids can play cricket in the street again and they can walk and cycle to school and people coming out the houses, they're living in the front rather than the back garden, the communities are reconnecting, all that kind of stuff, all these.
[00:18:17 - 00:18:18] Ilana: Benefits can have street parties.
[00:18:18 - 00:19:18] James: Yeah, exactly. It's easy. I'm actually trying to get one of these things in at the moment. A school street. I won't say exactly where because I haven't been to the council yet, but I'm getting my ducks. In order to say there's a street here, there's a school here, we don't need to drive during pickup and drop off times, let's actually close this street, let's get some chalk on the ground and some hula hoops, get a coffee caravan down there, let's make an event of it and then maybe we can look to make it into a park in the future. Let's trial it and test it. So there's always this fear of change, but trialing and testing is definitely the way to go. And what I was just talking about there, modal filters. So the easiest way to build a walking and cycling network in my opinion, just cut the head off the snake, just remove the traffic because everyone's rat running now. I rat run. Google Maps etc is helping me rat run. But if we're serious about, you know, got this movement in place framework that says where the traffic should be, why aren't we forcing the traffic to be there? Why are we still turning a blind eye to it coming through the neighborhoods where we want to play cricket, where you want to be, you know, out connect with our communities and having street.
[00:19:18 - 00:19:30] Ilana: Parties and keeping kids safe, keeping the wildlife safe. Just last week we talked about the Ramsar wetland and when I went to go photograph the building myself, there was a dead swan on Edith Bell Road.
[00:19:30 - 00:19:31] James: Oh really?
[00:19:31 - 00:19:43] Ilana: And you can't help but think how there's just no wildlife corridors even available. But I was just about to ask about what exciting projects you have coming up. So that, that school street is one of them.
[00:19:43 - 00:21:22] James: Yeah, that's, that's not, I'm not doing that professionally. I'm doing that as someone who just knows what they're doing. But it's a private little thing as an advocacy piece. Advocacy piece, which hopefully I'll use my skills and contacts to at least get a serious conversation going about that. But some projects are exciting me. Well, the pop up bike lanes of kind of, that program is kind of shutting down now. But there's a couple of them that are looking to maybe go permanent. Um, so if that would be a huge win, especially the one on Heidelberg Road if it, if it happens. I don't know if it's going to, but if that comes into the, into the pipeline and you know, I'd be looking at designs for that, then that would be a really exciting kind of thing for me. And also I've been speaking to a couple of regional towns recently. It was about, in relation to the Commonwealth Games, which isn't happening now, but still they're really keen about the modal filters. And if you look at some of the regional towns like say Ballarat for example, they've got this intense grid system, really, really tight grid system. So to again go back to the modal filters, put them on one street, just one street. You've just created a cycle corridor to your CBD And a couple of these towns I've been talking to actually really keen to try it. And for regional town, that's a. That's big, like huge. Huge. Because, you know, they, they struggle to get a lot of this stuff over the line. But the key message is, what I'm saying when I'm putting this stuff in is, guess what, you're not going to remove any parking. And 90% of the time that's the biggest political problem with what I do. So if I'm just saying, well, just don't let anyone, just don't close that intersection there. There's that one intersection, there's another 120 meters that way, it's 120 meters that way. It's hardly going to have any impact at all. You're not going to lose any parking and just try it and if you don't like it, we'll move it in six months.
[00:21:22 - 00:21:24] Ilana: 120 meters. That's really close.
[00:21:24 - 00:22:04] James: Yeah, yeah, it's actually 100, 120 meters. There's a side road every 120 meters and this one section of one of the towns I was looking at, so they're keen to try it and if they do, you know, I'll help them and help them with their engagement. It'll be the live consultation I spoke about. So it won't just be like, we're doing this and we're building it. It'll be a couple of plant pots in the middle of the street. So really kind of small infrastructure stuff, but huge benefits if they get it right and if they get. If they do it somewhere near a school as well, it's just going to. Yeah, I think once people see it, they'll just think, why are we doing this everywhere? And know. Start to snowball. But I can't believe I'm still an optimist after five years of being beaten down since I moved here. But I think you're. But I am.
[00:22:05 - 00:22:37] Ilana: I think you've got to be in our profession and we have so many, so much talent, so many ideas, so many people locally who do this, such as yourself, who are really good at what they do and we don't need yarn gel to tell us to take the cars off Swanson Street. Yeah, that's what gets me. We have enough Australian ideas and Australian ingenuity, innovation here with local talent and people championing without having to get foreign expertise for it to somehow be credible.
[00:22:37 - 00:23:16] James: Yeah, it just. But it's got to come from the top, though, hasn't it? It's got to Go. It's got to go all the way up to you know, state government level and Dan Andrews etc, they've got to, they've got to come out and say yeah, we want to do this, we understand the benefits of it and we're going to push for this. And that's kind of what happened back in London and it feels like at the moment it's more bubbling at my level. You know, local council, officer level, state government, the department, Transport and Planning, you know they get some stick but they've got some wonderful people in there who are really progressive and you know, but it's going even above them trying to get some of this stuff in. So there's a, there's a bit of a block somewhere. We're not sure exactly where it is but we'll keep pushing until, until it makes it really hard for people to you know, say no anymore.
[00:23:17 - 00:23:20] Ilana: Absolutely. And hopefully these live demonstrations.
[00:23:20 - 00:23:21] James: Yeah.
[00:23:21 - 00:23:27] Ilana: Also kick off. I recently heard in the press that they're considering something similar for in Brunswick.
[00:23:28 - 00:23:54] James: Yeah. Well Marybeck have done a lot, they've done a lot of these school streets. There's a lady called Zoe McMasters who was at Sustrans over in the UK and she came over, I was actually a bit annoyed because when she came over and I met her for a coffee and she got, she got her Moorland council as it was to put one of these in and I'd been trying for two or three years to get a client to do and she came in and did one within like three months. I was a bit annoyed. She stole my thunder. But she's great, she's really good, she's been really good, really good addition to the council over there.
[00:23:54 - 00:23:57] Ilana: Maybe touch base and find out what her methodology was on that one.
[00:23:57 - 00:24:04] James: I was chatting to her just the other day. Yeah. I was asking her for help me get my ducks in a row for this one that I want to do. So she gave me some good advice.
[00:24:04 - 00:24:05] Ilana: I've got our fingers crossed for you.
[00:24:05 - 00:24:06] James: Thanks.
[00:24:06 - 00:24:11] Ilana: What are some surprising outcomes that some of your projects in the past have delivered?
[00:24:13 - 00:25:43] James: I've mentioned Heidelberg Road a couple of times but I'm going to mention it again because that was quite surprising only because when we were putting a pop up bike lane there and this is a pretty hostile polluted road, no one was cycling there and it's, it's kind of near quite a few of the creek trails at the Merri Creek Trail etc. So you'd see people at a weekend would be just on the footpath and there was some skinny bits of shared path, but there wasn't much going on. And then since it's gone in, it's not just the numbers of people that have come, but it's. There's more people using it commuting than there was there is on a weekend now. But it's more kind of the. The people that are using it like women cycling, which is a really, you know, really hard to get a lot of women cycling. And that's doubled since it went in. And there's a kindergarten down there and people are cycling with cargo bikes. Taking the kids to the kinder on this 60k hostile road, we've just taken some lane space, so it was surprising. I didn't expect that. I thought, you know, it'd be great for the road bikers, you know, the people that you see on Beach Road, it'd be great for them. They've got all this space. But it's the diversity of people cycling, which is amazing. And it just, just shows the, you know, the potential for something like that. And a lot of, A lot of it. And where it's great is because a lot of the work, the work I do, people, clients might say, okay, we need to get some cycle counts to see what the numbers are or some, you know, walking counts. And that's kind of what they're basing their business case on, existing numbers. And it's a classic case of designing, trying to design for what you've got, not for what you want.
[00:25:43 - 00:25:46] Ilana: Yeah, really retrospective thinking, really big problem.
[00:25:46 - 00:26:30] James: But now, now there's a kind of more of like a vision and validate approach, which is better than this whole predict and provide approach. And that's a lot better. People are starting to come around to they will come the builder, they will come. Which gets mocked, but it's true. It will happen, but it's not gonna happen if you put one thing and then just leave it. Heidelberg Road, as great as it is, some of the connections into it are pretty weak. So. But that puts a lot of pressure on, you know, Darabin Yarra Council to there and do their bit and feed into it. So hopefully we all kind of, you know, push each other, strive to strive for better. But that's been, that's been a really good one for me. And it's just. It just warms my heart, like seeing kids on bikes anywhere. You know, people taking the kids to school on bikes on the road, not on the footpath, and more space for people walking. So therefore you get more people walking.
[00:26:30 - 00:26:32] Ilana: And feeling Safe and confident to do all that.
[00:26:32 - 00:26:34] James: Exactly. Yeah, definitely.
[00:26:35 - 00:26:47] Ilana: That in a way becomes a place making activity and you're really interested in place making. Can you tell me a bit more about some of your projects in that space that you've done and how they also tie into this infrastructure approach?
[00:26:48 - 00:27:41] James: Yeah, sure. So in, I mean since I've been over here, I've worked on the, the pilot program for the 20 Minute Neighborhoods program that was run by Delp at the time and that was over in Maroon Dirt and Sunshine was a couple of the clients we were doing that for. And it was really just looking at these kind of activity centers and just saying, well, what can we do to improve them? And we did some pretty ambitious stuff in Maroondah which hasn't been built yet, but they have because they were struggling to get community buy in. But they have been testing it and as part of that testing was taking away some of this car park that was there and having like movie nights and music nights and theme nights and stuff like that. And it became, you know, really successful. So they've shown the local traders, etc what's possible, you know, what kind of benefit that kind of thing can bring to get them over the line to kind of do something a bit more permanent. You know, they're working on it, they're hopeful but.
[00:27:41 - 00:27:43] Ilana: So that was classic resistance to the car parking.
[00:27:44 - 00:29:24] James: Yeah, it wasn't even the car parking. So basically what it is, it's hard to describe on the radio but. So there's, it's, there's a, there's kind of a slip lane that goes down the outs the front of the shops with a big car park on the other side. We weren't even going to touch the car park. We were just going to close the slip lane and make it into a plaza. But this slip lane is less than, I don't know, 70 meters from the intersection. But people will turn left and cut down through the slip line and drive straight through to bypass the intersection. So it's a no brainer from that side. But then as much as this car park is really big because there's parking outside the shops as well. People will pull over, stop there, grab a bacon buddy and off they go. But they could just go and park in this huge car park a walk 40 meters to get their bacon buddy. So there's this fear of the few spaces we're going to go outside the front of the shops but we're going to keep the huge car park. But we were just going to make this into like a plaza. And a placemaker thing with different events and stuff. So they've done the plaza, the thing, but they did it in the car park instead. And now it's just transferring it into the. Into the slip lane, which. Yeah, what could happen? We'll see. So that was. That's a really good one. And then in sunshine as well. A lot of stuff where. And it's. Look, I'm not a hue. I don't do like huge big public kind of malls or anything like that. My stuff's kind of what I see as big wins. Widening footpaths by 2 meters. Getting some extra benches in. Just getting some benches in. Even on a residential place, you know, put in putting benches for people to go and have a sit down and a conversation and enable them to go for a walk rather than being housebound or doing that round to an activity center. Putting cycle parking in, but step free cycle parking. So anybody can. If you've got a disability and you ride a bike, you can still go and.
[00:29:24 - 00:29:28] Ilana: Or a heavy E bike or a cargo bike with your kids.
[00:29:28 - 00:30:50] James: Yeah. Like, if anyone is like listening to this, I challenge you to find some step free cycle parking. When you're walking around, it's amazing how much cycle parking you see and you think, oh, that's great, but there's no like drop curbs to get onto it in the first place. Unless you walk up to an intersection. And that's actually the easiest thing in the world to fix. And it's very important, but we ignore it. So like little things like that is what I get excited about bringing. Even putting a water bubbler on a street. Just put it on. City of Melbourne's really good. They actually have a map. You can go online and it'll tell you where all the water bubbles are in the cbd, which is. Which is really good and really useful. So yeah, so on the, you know, on the sunshine stuff, we were looking at a similar kind of things. Just widening footpaths, taking out a little bit of a chemist car park, putting some more planting in. And they've done like a temporary activation where. Go back to the beginning of this conversation. They painted the road in all bright fancy colors and stuff, but this was more the road, it wasn't really a crossing. So it did look pretty cool. Or it was an eyesore, depending on which lens you're looking for. I thought it was kind of, kind of funky. And they had a couple of street party type things going on, I think. So they're looking to do something permanent down the line there and Just narrow the street and really make it. It a bit like the boulevard you were talking about earlier, kind of tight lanes, a big central boulevard with, you know, nice trees and stuff like that, and just slowing the space down through design and trying to discourage, you know, cars from using it.
[00:30:51 - 00:31:01] Ilana: How much more lovely is that? Yeah, I know you talk a bit about street hierarchy. Can you explain that term for the listeners?
[00:31:01 - 00:32:24] James: Yeah, I mean, for me, I'm always putting people walking, cycling, public transport first. There is the framework movement in place, which will categorize all sorts of streets and it will tell them what their primary focus should be. And, you know, it's not always going to be walking and cycling. There's obviously freight corridors that need to be done, but that's there really, to look at the street, look at the function of a street, look at the land use of a street, look at the destinations on a street, look at the people who use the street and prioritise what should be the most important thing here. It's really good for when you're doing things like corridor studies, where there is going to be a lot of movement, a lot of freight corridors, that sort of thing, or big movement corridors or big bus routes. But quite often, as you get into a more dense environment, a CBD environment is where I start to just struggle, lose a little bit of faith, because it just asks questions that are really hard to resolve, like, oh, yeah, we need bikes, we need trams, we need buses, we've got to make sure the taxis can get down there. And deliveries as well. What do you do? So it's. I'm a big believer that you should never have more than three modes, including walking in a street. So, you know, trams, bikes, walking, cars, trams, walking, bikes, cars walking that, you know, just. Just use three buses, bikes, walking, something like that. Obviously, that's quite naive to think that can happen in a lot of places, but why not? Why can't it happen?
[00:32:24 - 00:32:43] Ilana: It's all a decision. That's exactly it. I think people feel sometimes that it happens organically or it's just. It is what it is. But everything in our public realm is actually decision. It's a design exercise and someone decided that it's going to be that way one day and someone also has the power to change it.
[00:32:43 - 00:35:21] James: Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. But, you know, as far as the hierarchy goes, it's just doing the right thing, having the right. The street being adequate for the people who need to use it. So, you know, we've got a thing in Australia and in the UK, where a lot of our footpaths are maybe 1.5 meters wide and that's a default. And that will come out of a lot of precinct structure, plans, etc. And it's historical. Why, why is it 1.5 meters wide? Like if people are going to walk there, why not make it comfortable that I could walk down the street with a kid on one arm and a kid on the other hand, there's a story, true story. Last year I was walking my kid to school and we saw another mum who we know walking the other way and she's like, oh, hello, how you doing? Like, good. I was walking down with Harrison to school and so she stepped onto the verge and studied some dog muck. And I was just saying to her, yeah, but this is why I do what I do because you've just studied some dog muck. And I was just like, it's quite funny at the time, but I was like, yeah, because the footpaths are so narrow. So why if, and why, why are we doing that? Why are we, you know, why are we not putting mid block crossings everywhere? Why are we making it hard for people to cross the road? Why are we going to intersections? Like it's just if, if they're in a CBD environment, make it. The people walking can go wherever they want to go and they can get priority and you know, it's a slow speed environment. Even if you end up doing some sort of shared space. If you want to collect a road, like I know a Fowler street in Chelsea or something, fine. You know, make sure there's trees, make sure there's shade for people, but just have a decent width footpath and you can still have your traffic. You don't need 3.5 meter traffic lanes, you go down to 2.8, you can go down to 3 meters. And a lot of that comes from the guidance that we have. And a lot of the guidance is basically written for like an urban arterial. And a lot of local council traffic engineers will use the guidance and they will design urban arterial roads in a, in a place where it should never be an urban arterial. And there's nothing worse than a great. So the worst example of that is when you look at a lot of side roads and look how big the radius is on the corner. It's like. So you know, like a 12 and a half meter truck can turn left and stay in the same lane. Like heaven forbid it crosses into the other lane when it's going into a residential street. There's a lot of that sort of stuff going in where that should be really, really tight. The crossing should, there should be curb extensions. It's a very short crossing for people crossing the road. And yeah, if you turn into a street as a waste truck once a week and you cross the center line, who cares? But the benefit to everyone else is huge. So a hierarchy, it's just doing the right thing for the people who are going to use the street. I don't think you have to say this is the most important. Number one, then you must do this. It's just what's the function of the street? Let's react to it.
[00:35:22 - 00:35:30] Ilana: If you could have one thing on the top of your wish list across our sort of local area here in the city of Kingston, what would you pick?
[00:35:30 - 00:38:03] James: Modal filters. Every day of the week. It's just, it's just so easy. And not so many speed dumps. I find that there's a bit of a default solution in traffic management is to put more speed humps in where I think there's quite a bit of rat running in the areas of Kingston I've been in and I think just picking a couple of streets. Do my street. Yeah, it'll inconvenience me a little bit coming home, but that's okay. I'll live with that. That's all right. But yeah, I just think test just having, just testing these kind of things, testing some of the treatments, testing road closures, but allowing people to cycle and walk, use mobility scooters, etc. Just it's so easy to do. So that's something I'd love to see more of and just lower speeds. Like I'm a big believer, you know, we on our residential streets, we shouldn't be have more than 30k an hour as our speed on our street. And just doing that, I mean that's. You go to the Netherlands and we all talk about the Netherlands, especially my world as a cycle designer. But yeah, they have infrastructure, but they also have a hell of a lot of places that don't have any infrastructure. They just have a fairly narrow residential street that's a 30k an hour speed limit and that's it. And that, that creates a cycling environment. You know, it's the respect is there, the culture's there. You can't, you can't just do it overnight. But we have default streets. Sherwood Avenue where I live is a 50k an hour road and that's just nuts. It's a residential street and it's even had some little kind of chicanes and stuff designed into it. Some rain Gardens and it's still a 50k an hour road. Station street, there's four or five zebra crossings, like raised wombat crossings on there, but it's still a 60k an hour road. Like I don't think you should be putting zebras on a 60k an hour road. Now admittedly, I think that was just done as part of the level crossings and council have actually released something recently saying they want to lower it to 50. But if we've got the Nepean highway and that's your movement corridor, why is, why do we want them kind of streets to be 50? Okay, now it could be less that one might be a little bit ambitious because it is still a pretty strong movement corridor. But yeah, if you just look at the speed limit, seriously, I think there's going to be a tipping point in New South Wales. They've got better streets, which is a big advocacy group which has started over there and I kind of get involved in that a little bit and they're having the right chats with the ministers and I think there's going to be a big push for 30k in residential streets coming out of there soon. I know a lot of people probably listen to this instantly hate me for suggesting our road should be 30k an hour, but I think on a residential street is an easy way just to improve things again, get people more people walking, cycling.
[00:38:03 - 00:38:42] Ilana: It's for the safety of their own children, really, that suggestion, especially when everyone's driving around at massive cars now. Yeah, it's not to knock, not to victimize cars or point fingers at cars. It's about just making sure the community is okay. I really love your Dutch example. For anyone who's travelled there, it's a wonderful place. But the very common rebuttal is, oh, they're a different culture, they're a different culture. It's like, well, my feeling on that is we're all people, we're all part of the human race and all people should really care about other people. That's, that's what it comes down to for me. What, how does that sit with you, this rebuttal that, oh, where they're a different culture and it works for them.
[00:38:43 - 00:40:00] James: So when I was in London, I reckon this was around 2014, I remember putting in a like a 1.2 meter painted bike lane on the approach to an intersection and kind of seeing that as a win in a couple of places. And the argument would be, even though Cyclopes were there then, but we're still, you know, we're Not. We're not. We're not Denmark, we're not Amsterdam. You know, we're not the Netherlands. And I was like, yeah, okay. And then I move here and people are saying the same thing, but they've added London to that list. It's like, we're not London. So London was saying it about, you know, Amsterdam, etc. And now people are saying it about London or people saying, we're not Paris. So that list is now getting longer of the people that we're not. And now. And then you find now it's even coming down to a more local level. You've got, you know, Yarrow, which is. Got some pretty progressive councillors, and they got a few motor filters and some bike lanes and they tried some new stuff. You know, we're not Yarra. You know, this is Chelsea. We're not Yarra. When. When they look. When they can't argue anymore about, we're not, you know, other countries, like, well, here's 10 more. We're not. Here's Bogota. Throw that one in as well. Berlin. What about them here? Let's add them to the mix. And now. So now they started saying, well, okay, well, now we'll get locals here. We're not, you know, we're not Port Philly, we're not Yarrow, we're not this, we're not that. And it's just that natural trying to protect what's. What you've got and trying to protect change.
[00:40:00 - 00:40:32] Ilana: But it is an opportunity to design who we are and design the world we want to have and share with each other. But where is the ambition? I do believe in like a local view and a local vision and a local pride with. Without, you know, clutching for the grandeur and lifting the design of Europe on a pedestal, for example. I think as a colonial country, we did that for a very long time, particularly in the. In the 20th century. But we have to have some. Some ambition for what we're chasing.
[00:40:32 - 00:41:59] James: Yeah, we do, but we'll. But we also have to realize that. And I think there's a bit of. And there's a lot of people get referred to as antis, or people start talking bad about people because they're anti. You know, cycle infrastructure or anti. Kind of modal filters and this kind of thing. They're just human beings themselves, good people. You know, quite often we. It becomes an us and them mentality. I think we've got to be really careful that we don't do that. Not everybody on X Street is a whatever because they've signed A petition saying they don't want a bike lane outside their house. They just don't see the benefit to them. Yeah, and a lot of that might become because of the historical way we've designed things like with cycle infrastructure in particular, we only ever designed to cater for fast, confident people cycling. So when people talk about, you know, the lycra clad etc, you know, that's one if that is our existing rider base. But that's all we've really ever designed for. So that's what people see. The profile of a cyclist where I say there is no such thing as a cyclist. It's. You might be out on your sports bike tearing down beach road and then the next day you pop into Woolworths with your kid on the footpath or you're taking your kid to school and there's lots of different things you might be doing. You're just a person who's choosing a mode of transport in a different way for exercise, for leisure, you know, just for necessity, for chores, whatever it might be. But then we've got this us and them mentality and that's, that's the big, that's the thing we really have to.
[00:41:59 - 00:42:03] Ilana: Break down the biggest danger in all public life. Really.
[00:42:03 - 00:42:04] James: Yeah, definitely.
[00:42:04 - 00:42:15] Ilana: For any hope for the city. But that really, that vision, that idea really gives me pause that you say that we actually only design bike lanes for strong, confident cyclists and that's the.
[00:42:15 - 00:42:17] James: Sort of, Until I got here, until.
[00:42:17 - 00:42:55] Ilana: You arrived, James, the sort of planning headspace or dogma that was rolled out, I had no idea. And the second I think about it, it makes absolutely perfect sense. But that's really scary. And that's true for a lot of things that we design in the city. It's designed for able bodied people and it's more often than not designed by men, for men, including like climatic temperatures or the heights of things, the sizes and the spaces of things. And it's really important to remember like who is designing cities, who is designing places and who, who are we designing them for?
[00:42:55 - 00:44:27] James: Well, without doubt and we're, we're already outdating ourselves so we're, we're patting ourselves on the back when we put a protected bike lane in. You know, rightly so it's good, it's, it's good progress. But we're now getting into an environment where there's going to be, you know, e cargo bikes, e scooters, faster mobility devices in these bike lanes. So my wife isn't a very confident, she's not very confident on her bike that's going to become a barrier to her cycling. If she's in a 1.82 meter protected lane and all these fast devices, it's just turning one highway into another highway. You're trying to get past her. So even the protected bike lane isn't really equal. It's going to be outdated. And one of the barriers to women cycling especially is the fear of falling into traffic and having that protected space and just feeling that low level of stress. But that low level of stress is going to disappear soon because we could get oversaturated with faster mobility devices. We were talking, celebrating 2 meter protected bike lanes. Now we're looking at maybe we need three, maybe we need two bike lanes within a bike lane. Maybe we don't need a bike lane, we just close the road. Except for bikes and cars, the modal filter might be the way to go. You take the whole street so you're not mixing with cars, but you're not penned into a protective bike lane. And I don't know the answer. Everything site specific, as you say, you know, you've got to factor in the land use and you know what you need to achieve there, especially when it comes to a CBD environment. But yeah, it's pretty interesting how quickly things are moving and how quickly new things are coming online that we have.
[00:44:27 - 00:44:40] Ilana: To think about, make it adaptable so we can prepare for that future. Like you say, that protected bike line actually pins you in a little bit. You spend all this money on concrete curbs without the opportunity to expand bit further if you need to. Because paint is cheap.
[00:44:41 - 00:45:24] James: Yeah, it is cheap. And also. Yeah, and it's, you know, it's quite often it's just put in because you want to retain the parking on the, on the curbside etc, which is another tricky thing, you know, to manage. But yeah, it's look, it's, it's changing all the time. And I've done, I'm doing a lot of designs for certain clients at the moment and I'm optioneering and I'm pushing parking out and putting bike lanes on the curbs. I'm getting rid of parking, I'm putting motor filters in, I'm just throwing all these options. At least it's, it's well thought through and you can go to the community and go, right, we've looked at everything here. These would be the impacts do this, this would be impacts to do this. And then we do some assessments and you know, we talk about things like, you know, like gender equity and all that kind of stuff. And making sure it's inclusive as possible.
[00:45:25 - 00:45:26] Ilana: Spatial justice.
[00:45:26 - 00:45:38] James: Yeah, exactly, all that stuff. And then all you can do is, you know, go to the counselors and show you've done your homework and hopefully, you know, they've, they'll get on board, you know, when you can show the benefits. But yeah, it's, it's an interesting space.
[00:45:39 - 00:45:47] Ilana: And who's leading the innovation across Australia at the moment? Is there any sort of cities that get your gold ticks?
[00:45:47 - 00:46:22] James: Oh well, I mean City of Melbourne have done some really good stuff. I mean it might be, you know, it might look cheap and cheerful, the bolt down separators, but they've got some good progressive people there and they've really done a great job reallocating road space but managing the parking that was needed or the loading that was needed. I think they've done phenomenal and they're really progressive. And even the little streets, we did some work for them recently evaluating the little streets program and it basically has to come question, how are our little streets performing as a shared space? And they're surprising, you know the answer probably not too unsurprising would be well, they're not really. It's more of a slow speed environment because cars are still.
[00:46:22 - 00:46:24] Ilana: Little streets is in the laneways.
[00:46:24 - 00:48:20] James: Yeah, yeah. Like Flinders Lane, etc. You know, it's not, it's not, not what you call a shared space but that's obviously, you know, the intent kind of thing. But they are, you know, and they're looking at future streets program and how can that all change and how can they make the C CBD more people friendly? And I think they're excellent. I think they're really good. I think City of Sydney, like Fiona Campbell who heads a cycle infrastructure team up there, you know, they're doing some wonderful things and just smart, just smart how they go about it. So them, the two that stand out. I think up in WA there's a program called the Safe Active streets program which is just, it's just really creating slow streets, slow streets, occasional kind of friendly kind of speed humps, the odd modal filter, redesigning the street. So it's kind of, you know, that the parking is kind of in inset bays but the streets are a bit narrower and they're just picking the right places to do it. Not big rat runs and stuff but they're just setting good precedents and it's just kind of quite a pleasant place to cycle around South Australia. We might as well just bypass that one because they're done, they're doing A great deal from all. From what I hear anyway. And in Queensland, you know, they've. From what I. What I see, I see the great pictures over there that. The cycling bridges and the walking and cycling bridges that they have kind of going on there. I'm not sure what the connections are like. From what I hear they could be better, but, you know, they do. They do stuff pretty well as far as getting big, long cycle routes in. I think it's more at a local level where they maybe need some more work. But, yeah, look, city, Melbourne, City of Sydney, kind of standing out for me, for sure. And then you get some surprising people in local government that just pop up in different governments that are doing some really good stuff and are really progressive. But quite often, even in the local government, there's an internal battle that goes on. I find with my job, the planners and the urban designers who commission me and they kind of, you know, love the work my team does is great, but then they have to sell the ideas to their own internal engineers and often that's where it can get a bit sticky.
[00:48:20 - 00:48:22] Ilana: Get it through their powers that be.
[00:48:22 - 00:48:31] James: Yeah. So it's always a bit. A bit of a. I like. I like starting arguments within councils, internal arguments, but, yeah, that's what I got to do.
[00:48:31 - 00:48:43] Ilana: But that's it. Like, you need discussion, you need discourse, you need. You need questions. If everyone in the room agrees there's probably something wrong. You've probably not reached the right. The right solution at that moment.
[00:48:43 - 00:49:02] James: Definitely. And it's hard being a consultant. Like, I. I'll walk away from a job if I don't think the outcome. If I get a quote and the outcome isn't what I think is a good outcome. And I know they're just trying to tick a box. Like, I'm just not going to do it. I'm not going to bother. Whereas I probably should take the money because someone's going to take it. Yeah. And then try and. But sometimes you're just like, no, it's just poison.
[00:49:02 - 00:49:02] Ilana: Chalice.
[00:49:02 - 00:49:41] James: Yeah, yeah. Just don't bother. I don't want my name associated with that stuff. And I've designed rubbish, don't get me wrong. Like, where I've been forced to run and behind my back to do something I didn't want to do. But I've only done it when I've known there's a greater good. Like, if I don't do this, I won't get to do this. Like, I can design something great here. Yeah. I might have to do this on the side which I don't agree with, but I'm gonna do this better than anyone else, the good stuff. So, yeah, let's. Let's take it on. It's tricky being a consultant and, you know, trying to be an advocate at the same time, because I can't, you know, go rubbishing the stuff that my clients want to do. But I'm just. I'm just trying to help them make the best decisions and put the best case forward for them to get this stuff over the line and taking a.
[00:49:41 - 00:49:43] Ilana: Telescopic view to support them along that process.
[00:49:44 - 00:49:45] James: Yeah, yeah, I try to.
[00:49:45 - 00:49:53] Ilana: I will add a comment on Brisbane that they have the added privilege of fairies that work really well in both paid and free ferries.
[00:49:53 - 00:49:54] James: I haven't actually been there yet. I've only seen.
[00:49:54 - 00:49:55] Ilana: Oh, it's so fun.
[00:49:55 - 00:49:56] James: The images.
[00:49:56 - 00:50:01] Ilana: Yeah. We went up for a long weekend and the ferries zoom you around much faster than you can possibly walk.
[00:50:01 - 00:50:01] James: Okay.
[00:50:01 - 00:50:15] Ilana: All right. And I hear that the earliest waking city in the world as well, because of how early the sun rises and everyone is running and everyone is cycling and you forget they're actually inland, they're up a river, they're not near the coast.
[00:50:16 - 00:50:22] James: Well, I've got a five and a seven year old. I think I've got the earliest house in the world, never mind the earliest city.
[00:50:22 - 00:50:24] Ilana: And is everyone a keen cyclist?
[00:50:26 - 00:50:43] James: Oh, yeah. I mean, no. My wife's kind of. When our car was kind of in the garage for about three months, I got her a bike and she was on it a lot and now she's just fallen back into the habit of driving down to the shops and stuff again and she wants to use the bike again. But it's more just the habits, like you're just so used to it.
[00:50:43 - 00:50:49] Ilana: Oh, totally, totally. I studied on exchange and I lived for half a year in Belgium, in Ghent.
[00:50:49 - 00:50:50] James: Okay.
[00:50:50 - 00:51:08] Ilana: And it's amazing how quickly we adapted to life on the bike. Shopping on the bike, going out on the town on the bike in minus one degrees, all dressed up, you just, you switch on either when you have no other choice or the city. And the urban realm really supports that. What about you, Are you a keen cyclist?
[00:51:09 - 00:51:46] James: Yeah, look, when I was in living in Brighton East, I'd like, I'd ride my bike to work 15km their 1500s back every day. Now I'm in Chelsea. Hardly ever ride my bike to work. So I leave, I leave an E bike in the office and I have another bike at home, a normal bike at home. So when I'm just Popping down to the shops. I'll use my bike, but I'll be honest, locally I probably drive more than I cycle. But when I'm in the office, I always use my bike to take all my site visits. One, because it's quicker, but two, because the projects I work on, I like to put like a GoPro on. I like to ride the route I'm going to design just to get that perspective that I can look back on as a rider and I can show to clients and collect the data.
[00:51:46 - 00:51:46] Ilana: That's awesome.
[00:51:46 - 00:52:02] James: Yeah. And just, just get it. So I've got that live footage of it before and after and when I'm talking to them about stuff, I can pause the video and say, look, we've got this issue here and it might be buildability, it might be a sight line issue, that kind of thing. But I can, it's real because it's, it's me on the bike riding the route that we're going to design for.
[00:52:02 - 00:52:05] Ilana: You can say, hang on, hang on, I've just been here. Let's, let's rewind that video.
[00:52:05 - 00:52:10] James: Yeah, So I like having the bike there and I like, I like to ride around the city quite a bit when I'm doing my site visits.
[00:52:10 - 00:52:15] Ilana: Excellent. What got you into transport planning and active transport as your niche of choice?
[00:52:16 - 00:54:23] James: Well, when I was working in, back at Transport for London for quite a while, I mean, my job was just road design, keeping traffic moving, which is TfL Transport for London's kind of slogan at the time, Keep London moving. So I was there, you know, helping, trying to get cars through intersections and stuff like that, and it wasn't particularly inspiring. Then I got the opportunity to work on a couple of bike projects and I just immediately was like, yeah, this is just the right thing to do. And then I got a really good one in in London. One of the first kind of big bus cycle priority kind of lanes with, with bus stop bypasses, like three big bus stop bypasses. And I got them designed in and it was kind of seen as a little bit of a benchmark design at the time by the commissioner saying, yeah, this is how we should be doing these. And then I was just like, yeah, this is, this is what I want to be doing. And then when I came over to Australia, I, I kind of just realized pretty quickly that I probably knew a little bit more than most of the people around me about design and planning in this space. And I'd had some good mentors, you know, back in London that I respected and kind of followed and did some courses, et cetera, cycle design courses. And then I got to be. And so I kind of like was just given any work that came in that was that related kind of. But we weren't very strong in that space, our company at the time. So I've kind of helped build that part of the business up. And for the first six months I didn't have any work. No one knew me. We didn't really do anything. So I was just doing presentations to state government, to local government, just doing the houses then eventually started trickling in and then state government came knocking on the door and like, you're that guy. I presented and then we gave us some quotes and we, yeah, we won some work and now we're up and running and now we're really, really strong in that space and we're probably, we've got this like cycle design of excellence at Stantech and I think we're probably the, probably the, the best in Victoria for kind of that kind of work. But it didn't come easily. But the passion kind of grew in London and I'd say even, even since I've landed here, it's, it's accelerated, you know, tenfold since I got in because I've got more into it. I've had more opportunities to work solely on that where in London I do some cycle design on a superhighway or something. And then on the side I'd be working on a roundabout, a multi lane roundabout. So it's kind of a mixed bag.
[00:54:24 - 00:54:32] Ilana: That's fantastic. Huge congratulations on that growth as well and the ideas that you're able to put out there and the change you're able to affect.
[00:54:32 - 00:55:12] James: Yeah, people always say you're so lucky to do what you do that you know, it's something you're so passionate about. But I always kind of say I am, but I get the door slammed in my face an awful lot. So it's not, it's not everything it's cracked up to be. You know, it's not like I'm just building stuff left, right and center. Like I have a lot of pushback on what I'm trying to do. So I am lucky and I'm in a great position in the company. But yeah, I still want more and I still want to see, I still want more results. I still want to leave a legacy on the, on the street and for the junior engineers that are coming up behind me to kind of, you know, when I retire in 15 years or whatever, that they're in a really strong position to come and, you know, keep driving. Because electric cars are not the answer.
[00:55:12 - 00:55:17] Ilana: No, they're still, they're still big. It's still affect people's safety.
[00:55:18 - 00:55:19] James: Yeah, exactly.
[00:55:20 - 00:55:45] Ilana: That's. That's really excellent. I also am reflecting on how people think London is this old world developed big, huge city that's fixed and rigid and yet you're able to create so much change, so much possibility, so much opportunity. So the existing condition should never be a limit for us and the change that we're able to affect in our cities and in the public realm.
[00:55:46 - 00:58:04] James: Yeah, no, definitely. And if, I don't know if you're familiar with the Mini Holland program over there, I think that's a great example. So Mini Holland is basically. It was. There was. The government had, I think they had like 30 million each and said three councils can. Everyone could bid for the money and we'll give it to three councils. And they gave it to Enfield, to Waltham Forest. And I forget what the other one was, but basically the Mini Holland is primarily associated with Waltham Forest and it was to develop better cycling infrastructure originally. And what they did, it was just a lot of stuff like modal filters, protected bike lanes, a lot of continuous footpaths, just raising the, you know, the side road, but really making it difficult to drive through the neighborhood. That kind of Dutch model. If it's hard to drive through a neighborhood, you kind of have to go around, but just providing lots of little pocket parks, loads of modal filters, kind of school, street environment, slow speeds, hard to. Making it hard to drive. Because that's actually one of the biggest things here. It's not the lack of infrastructure. We make it so easy to drive. And it was a great success and there was huge opposition to it. There was. People were marching down Walthamstow High street carrying a coffin and it said death to the high street. And there was loads of people protesting against them. I think most of them were taxi drivers. But it was a huge, you know, there's a lot of. And they held firm, which is good because a lot of times people just fold under that kind of pressure. They held firm. And even though it was loaded, this kind of psychic cycling scheme, what's ended up in all the studies is that more people are walking a lot more. There's more walking going on than there was cycling. So walking got a huge uplift. And there was a study, I think it's about three years ago that there, they helped. The life expectancy for people who live there has now gone up by three Months as well in like the first couple of years. Well, there you go, more people being active and stuff. And it's just been this really great scheme and if you just Google like Mini Holland, you could just see all these great images of people going through little cut throughs that used to be roads and now they're just little pocket parks you can nip through and here and there with benches and flowers and places to sit and congrate and just have a chat with a couple of neighbors or drop the kids off at school and have a coffee with someone and which is really important. You know, that's like the only social interaction some people might get in a day is that skill drop off, skill pickup. So if you can facilitate and put a place there where people can do it and they're relaxed and they get to chat to people. Who knows what benefits that's having to.
[00:58:04 - 00:58:08] Ilana: Your mental health and how that multiplies that butterfly effect through our community.
[00:58:08 - 00:58:08] James: Yeah, definitely.
[00:58:08 - 00:58:19] Ilana: We'll pop some photos up of all of these examples also in our Instagram post that we do to follow up after each show. And I think that's a perfect lead in to my last question James, is what gives you hope?
[00:58:21 - 01:00:23] James: What gives me hope? I think the change I'm probably seeing in Victoria at a state government level gives me a lot of hope. When I got here I felt it was very car orientated, very traffic centric still and a lot of my words would fall on deaf ears. But I've got to know quite a lot of people and there's teams that have been set up within state government like an active travel team. And there's a new generation of people coming through and some of the old guard have kind of either moved on, retired, etc. And there's some really progressive people in there. And now it's not just some consultant from England saying you should do this. Who's this guy coming over and telling us what to do with our streets? Now there's people supporting what I'm saying at a local government, at a state government level and there's just more pressure going up and I think like the iPad, like Coca Cola, there's a tipping point at some point and I do think that tipping point will come because I think we have no choice with our roads and the way we design our streets, you know, you can let it get busier, bring autonomous vehicles in and have tail to tail cars just going around. It's, it's not going to be good, is it? So yeah, we've got no choice. It's going to get busy, it's going to get more polluted. We have to act. And they all say this climate, everyone's got this climate action plan and not many people are kind of really doing anything about it. But what I'm seeing now in local and state government is there's more and more progressive people who are pushing hard and they're asking their bosses, why, you know, why, why are you saying no? And, and I think we're getting some momentum and yeah, and I think eventually it's going to, it's going to tip over and then once the, the real decision makers see the benefits, they're going to get behind it because it's going to be things you can do cheap. You can put massive new road corridors in if you want to and spend billions and billions and billions, or you can put that money into local transport improvement, accessibility, place, making social housing, that kind of stuff. And you'll see a lot more return for your book, I reckon.
[01:00:23 - 01:00:27] Ilana: We'll have an incredible city, an incredible life, and we won't know ourselves.
[01:00:27 - 01:00:31] James: Yeah, well, probably be long retired and.
[01:00:31 - 01:00:32] Ilana: Able to reap the benefits.
[01:00:32 - 01:00:37] James: Yeah. And everyone will be like, no one will know. No one will know about my small little part in it.
[01:00:38 - 01:00:40] Ilana: Well, we have this record. We have this conversation.
[01:00:40 - 01:00:43] James: We've got it recorded. It's all me. It was all me. Tell your grandkids.
[01:00:44 - 01:00:54] Ilana: And Radio Karen puts all our shows up across any of your favorite podcast platforms so you could catch up on this show at any time. Thank you so much for joining me tonight, James.
[01:00:54 - 01:00:54] James: Thank you.
[01:01:00 - 01:01:31] Radio Architecture Outro Theme: Thanks for joining me for another evening of the Radio Architecture with Ilana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrum Studio on Bunurong Country. You can replay the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting Community radio. Take care. Mr. Spaceman won't you please take me along I won't do anything wrong hey.
[01:01:3- 01:01:47] Station ID
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amenities toilets mordialloc public

8 | July 23, 2023

Mordialloc local & Graduate Mitch Carter on public amenities

Mitch Carter is a Graduate of Architecture from RMIT Architecture and Urban Design whose work is interested in the relationship between public architecture and community wellbeing.

During his MArch at RMIT he explored architecture's relationship to accessibility, sustainability, culture, and climate change. He completed his Major Project titled ‘Lifeboat City’ under the supervision on Patrick Macasaet in 2022. He has over 4 years of industry experience across multi-residential, education and health sector projects. As a long-time local resident of Mordialloc, Mitch joins Ilana for a discussion about the history, amenity, and architectectural joy of public toilets.

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Mordialloc local & Graduate Mitch Carter on public amenities
[00:00:05- 00:00:53] Radio Carrum Sponsor ID
[00:01:07 - 00:02:47] Ilana: I'm Ilana Rasbash and this is Radio Architecture. Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country. I'm so lucky to be able to live work, play and broadcast to you live on Radio Carrum from this wonderful place. Tonight, I'm joined in the studio by Mitch Carter, a long time city of Kingston local and currently residing in Mordialloc. He's an architectural graduate on his pathway in the future to becoming a registered architect and he's taken notice of some of the wonderful recent developments in public amenities infrastructure around his home suburb around Mordialloc. And he's on joining me here in the studio live tonight to talk about some of these public toilets. So thank you so much to everyone who's tuning in for another episode of Radio Architecture with Alana Ras Bash this evening. You, as always, you can text into The Studio on 04-932-13831 and if you miss those numbers, the contact button on our Instagram page will also take you through there. So please text in some questions and any contributions to the conversation tonight. This is a topic that sometimes is funny, sometimes is very serious and for most people quite close to their heart. So welcome tonight Mitch.
[00:02:47 - 00:02:49] Mitch: Thank you so much for having me. How you going?
[00:02:49 - 00:03:16] Ilana: I'm so good. This is the eighth show already and congratulations. It only took eight episodes to get onto public toilets. So I'm really glad. I am absolutely busting. We'll try to keep the puns under control. Under control tonight, but they inevitably slip out. And I think that's, that's quite okay. I'm wondering, Mitch, how did you choose architecture?
[00:03:16 - 00:04:30] Mitch: How did I choose architecture? It's kind of funny. It's a bit anti climactic. Yeah, I went to the Open days for, for Fine arts. I was, I was always interested in creative things. In high school I did like photography, music creation, I did arts. And yeah, when it came time to pick universities, I went to all of that, the fine arts open days. But my partner at the time was going into architecture and so I went with her to all of the architecture open days as well. And it just looked cooler. I don't know, I sort of. I honestly kind of just decided it sucked you in. Yeah, well, because, you know, there's so much more like artistry and creativity and architecture than you, than you might think as an outsider, you know, like, I never would have expected it to be so creatively interesting. As a high schooler interested in fine arts, you know, I was really taken aback by, by just how cool and interesting these drawings and models were by the architecture students. And yeah, pretty much from that point on, I put architecture is my preference.
[00:04:30 - 00:04:53] Ilana: We're glad to have you. You're a wonderful designer and a very good photographer. As you have been sharing this week on your Instagram, some of the excellent photos of public facilities around Mordialloc that have caught your eye. I also want to ask one last question from this origin story of how we got to this moment of what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:04:55 - 00:05:21] Mitch: Um, I think the earliest, the earliest kind of interesting memory was in. In. In a new home. We had just. We were just moving into. We. We actually got it built. So I sort of. I saw it go up, which was interesting. I remember going up the. The stairs before they were like all finished and compliant and you were kind of going like across the different. Up the different planks and being very careful about it when I was like, I don't like five or something like that.
[00:05:21 - 00:05:23] Ilana: That sounds like a sketchy high ropes course.
[00:05:23 - 00:05:44] Mitch: So sketchy. Heaps of fun. Really good time. It was a lot of fun. Anyway, when it was all finally done, we went there and in my excitement, I saw my mum out on the balcony and I was just so psyched to be there. Ran out to her and went straight through the fly screen.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:45] Ilana: Oh no.
[00:05:45 - 00:05:47] Mitch: Straight through the new fly screen.
[00:05:50 - 00:05:50] Ilana: Ouch.
[00:05:51 - 00:05:55] Mitch: Yeah, I don't remember it hurting. It. It was just like all of a sudden it was there.
[00:05:57 - 00:06:31] Ilana: Those moments happen and surprises get us. And I think that's why this, this topic of public torts that will be on tonight is actually really, really important because it services the needs of some. Often things that are unexpected, sometimes planned for. Some people can't even leave home for a number of reasons without knowing what these locations are. Some people drive for work and depend on these facilities. Need to know where a public toilet is. Say they're driving Uber or delivery or even Armor Guard or something. They'll all rely on these facilities or even council workers.
[00:06:32 - 00:06:33] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:06:33 - 00:06:44] Ilana: So what, what got you interested? What, what caught your eye about the latest new build by K20 Architecture?
[00:06:44 - 00:07:34] Mitch: Yeah. Well, look, I. I really Wasn't so aware of, of just how dependent some people were on public toilets. Before I got, before I sort of, you know, this, this started researching it sprung On Me by K20's Beautiful Changing Places facility in Mordialloc. It sort of, it was a product of the lockdown and the, that, that 5k radius and going on the daily walks and that was the time that they were building it. So I sort of saw it happen. I saw it be built slowly over time. You know, when something like that happens in a, in a prominent place like it, so people notice, people know. Yeah. So it's located in Morty Alec, right in between the pier and the Tour.
[00:07:34 - 00:07:39] Ilana: De Cafe, which is an excellent cycling cafe for anyone who rides Beach Road.
[00:07:39 - 00:08:22] Mitch: Yeah, they all know it, we all know it. So you know, it takes up a prominent bit of space where it was. And when it was being built, the part of that pathway that walk to the pier and back was, was obstructed. So you definitely noticed it. And yeah, really slowly. I had no idea what it was going to be at first. I mean, yeah, it just was in my, in my neighborhood on my, my daily exercise walk. And, and then when it got built it was fantastic. We sort of after the lockdowns I sort of, I went back down there one time and noticed that yeah, this really beautiful structure had, had popped up. It's this like sand colored brick that curves out of the ground on either side. It's, it's, yeah, it's a, it's, it's a really beautiful toilet and scallops.
[00:08:22 - 00:08:31] Ilana: Right. In some moments as a sand castle and some moments the seashells, it's very of its place. It's right near the beach. Like totally 100 meters. No more.
[00:08:31 - 00:09:49] Mitch: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I think I actually, I really like that motif because looking into it more, I mean the, the great thing about that toilet is that it's a, it's also a changing places facility which is a place where people can, it has the facility for an adult to change themselves if you know, because of whatever disability they, they need that in order, in order to go out and be in public. They can't go out into public unless they have a place that they can change. Um, and the, and the, and the really wonderful thing about that motif of seashells and you know, the sand colored bricks and the way that the, the form of the building is in the shape of seashells in a way as if it's been created from seashells, as if it's like A kind of sandcastle in itself made of the place is. It's really like kind of poetic to me because it speaks to the thing that, you know, this portion of the community can now do more because of this facility. You know, a significant portion of the city, the Kingston community can now go to the toilet and play in the sand. Sorry can go to the beach and play in the sand because they have this new public toilet, this changing places facility. See I like that, that aspect of it a lot.
[00:09:49 - 00:10:37] Ilana: It's really important for people that aren't familiar with it. It is actually part of the building code is required in certain really large public buildings. But for it to be included in this way at the local beach in the public realm, it is very, very forward thinking and forward moving of Kingston City Council and really important as well as providing the conventional facilities that members of the public will be used to. And listeners are of course familiar with the changing places actually at the back. And people need a special key called an MLC to access it. They often need the support of a carer to be. Or multiple carers sometimes to be changed or assisted in there. But this allows people to really actively participate in the public realm. How's the legislation around public toilets?
[00:10:38 - 00:11:24] Mitch: So glad you asked. It is so surprising. You know, you mentioned the ncc, the National Construction Code and how it says that we need to have changing places facilities in some larger, larger buildings and there's a whole range of legislations, regulations around toilets in buildings. You know, we really regulate. Regulate the hell out of it. Like it's, you know. But some people might be surprised that there's actually no legislative requirement for public toilets. For four councils to provide public toilets. You know, when they make public toilets there are legislations around what they need to. What they need to do, their accessibility. But there's, there's absolutely no requirement for them to be provided in the first place.
[00:11:24 - 00:11:28] Ilana: Freestanding, detached from a building for, for our listeners.
[00:11:28 - 00:11:28] Mitch: Exactly.
[00:11:28 - 00:11:52] Ilana: Will flag that any building you build, there's minimum regulatory numbers that have to be matched and, and those are quite prescriptive as a bare minimum. But this is, this is the freestanding typology that we're talking about today. This, this object, this single, single building out in the public realm. In a park, in a car park, near the beach.
[00:11:52 - 00:11:53] Mitch: Yeah, exactly.
[00:11:53 - 00:11:55] Ilana: No legislative requirements.
[00:11:56 - 00:11:56] Mitch: Yeah, no.
[00:11:57 - 00:11:57] Ilana: Wow.
[00:11:58 - 00:11:59] Mitch: Crazy, right?
[00:11:59 - 00:12:17] Ilana: It is, it is because it's such a feature and a need of the human condition and we provide so many other things that deemed in many ways compulsory and things that provide safety to people. In the public realm.
[00:12:19 - 00:13:00] Mitch: Yeah, no, sort of on this, this lack of regulation. Catherine Weber actually has made a bit of a proposal for a national public like set of national public toilet principles to create some regulations. She did this in 2021 and it's just like really basic things to require councils to sort of consider public toilets in relation to, you know, the health and safety of the people who live in their cities and shires and yeah, I think it would be really. It's sort of, it's something that's completely missing. I think, you know, from, from our urban design thinking.
[00:13:00 - 00:13:21] Ilana: Some councils were clearly. Kingston's doing the right thing here and is really investing in many of the Long beach facilities. But from the life saving club upgrades at the moment that have a publicly accessible but integral public facilities, meaning they're part of the building. The public toilets are right there, you can just walk up to it and then these freestanding ones. But are there city councils that don't have this policy at all?
[00:13:22 - 00:13:57] Mitch: Yeah, no. So I think like, to be clear on it, many cities do see the benefit in providing public toilets to the people who live there, because there are many and it is, and it is clear and you know, it really provides a great benefit to people's lives and economically and from a tourist perspective and all that stuff. And councils get that. So most councils, cities, shires in Victoria do have proper public toilet plans and you know, they got their visions and they're aspiring for great things. But you know, even in Victoria there are a handful that don't have one.
[00:13:58 - 00:14:01] Ilana: Yeah, that's really shocking.
[00:14:02 - 00:14:04] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, it is, it is.
[00:14:06 - 00:14:35] Ilana: And then sometimes they're, they're planned with these defensive people. Call it hostile architecture. I don't necessarily like the term, but it's these defensive principles to detract people from coming or using or staying too long. It's. The acronym is septed but means Crime Prevention through Environmental Design for our listeners and that, that you can always really read when that's been at the forefront of design. What do you think about.
[00:14:36 - 00:16:19] Mitch: Yeah, totally. No, completely cpted. You know, it really takes this position of trying to. It often seems to take a position of trying to make a place so unattractive that, you know, quote unquote, unwanted space users won't come near it. That people, you know, won't go and vandalize it. And to do that they'll sort of, you know, light it really intensely and not provide any chairs around these public toilets or you know, you see a lot of, a lot of public benches that are designed to sort of not allow someone to sleep on them. That's sort of a, a septet kind of response. And I think that it sort of, it kind of, it kind of misses the point and the benefit that, that architecture and good design can create in a community. And it's obviously like a public, A good public toilet isn't going to solve all of, all of all of society's problems. You're still going to have people who will like, for example, use drugs or something, you know, and, and if you don't have, say, a safe injecting room nearby, well then they're going to do it at the public toilet. And by making that public toilet less attractive overall to try and determine them, to try and deter them, one, they're not necessarily going to not go there, but two, you're going to negatively impact all of the people who need to use this public toilet on a regular basis. And you know, these are all kinds of people.
[00:16:19 - 00:17:15] Ilana: That's exactly my feeling that sometimes when we take these defensive principles too far for often regulatory reasons, no architect actually wants to do it. It's often a necessity placed upon us or predicament required by the stakeholders. And all public work is a compromise for everyone involved in order to reach what we think is the consensus of the best outcome for everyone. And it's a very collaborative process. But it definitely comes to a point where we deprive most of the people and most of the public from an opportunity to have a dignified moment, a beautiful moment, a relaxing moment, where if we so aggressively pursue designing for the lowest common denominator, then like, what aspiration does that, does that lend to us all?
[00:17:16 - 00:18:15] Mitch: Yeah, totally, totally. No, you know, thinking about some of these like really hostile public toilet blocks that we design in the, with, with the hopes of deterring unwanted space users just reminds. Makes me think about like, you know, how much we, we lose in doing that. There are some like, really, really cool public toilets abroad and there's, there's like one in particular in Norway where it's like all reflect. It's, it's on, it's on like a scenic road in Norway. And this like beautiful concrete structure comes out of the ground and it, it nestles and holds this, you know, aluminium reflective amenity that has two or three cubicles that have like the wash basin and everything contained in it. And you go, that cubicle and this might sound intimidating, but the whole wall is glass. But there's no, it's sort of somewhat reflective from the other side. So you do have A bit of privacy.
[00:18:15 - 00:18:17] Ilana: It's a one way glass, but also.
[00:18:17 - 00:18:22] Mitch: It'S not an accessible view that you have. It's of a beautiful stream and rocky landscape.
[00:18:22 - 00:18:23] Ilana: Norwegian Fjord.
[00:18:25 - 00:18:49] Mitch: Exactly, exactly. And I know that, you know, Andrew Maynard of Austin Maynard Architects, like when, whenever, whenever they can, they'll design the toilets in their houses to have a, to have a view, a loo with a view always. And, and it's just not something you get when your, your main focus in designing these public toilets is making people not want to use them to keep.
[00:18:49 - 00:19:35] Ilana: Others out as well. You raise a really interesting point though, about the policy. The policy that exists in parallel and symbiotically tends to unfold at the same time where that policy needs to be developed, really at the same time. You can't kick someone out of the public space and expect them to go away when there's nothing else supporting them. And looking at the situation holistically, but that really points in many ways very quickly towards how public toilets and all of human history seem to be the battlegrounds for our moral panics.
[00:19:35 - 00:19:36] Mitch: Totally.
[00:19:36 - 00:19:51] Ilana: And for these frustrations and often the persecution and victimizing of minority groups over history and over time. How have you uncovered that in your research, how those stories played out?
[00:19:51 - 00:21:28] Mitch: The story of public toilets is a story of social progression and it always has been. Like it just entirely is, you know, like the first public toilets, the Romans had them, right. And we hold, you know, the Roman Empire with such high regard, I guess, in what that and a Eurocentric society. Yeah, totally, totally, totally. But, you know, even, even more recently, you know, Melbourne, Melbourne got the first public toilets in Australia. Right. And the city really pushed for that. The city of Melbourne back in the, in like the mid-1800s, around the gold Rush, you know, really pushed for that because the public toilets represented a progressive, modern city. You know, like they, they, they had just been invented in the 1850s in England and the city installed them and it was a symbol of how progressive we are. It was just like the street lamps. And just like the street lamps, they were seen as an amenity for society, these toilets. But even at that time, those public toilets were, were people were going against them. People didn't, you know, NIMBYs, not in my backyard, they thought that having a toilet, even though the ones that we're talking about are the, the underground public toilets in the city of Melbourne, you can still see one near the gpo. Near the gpo, that's right.
[00:21:28 - 00:21:30] Ilana: Blocked up near Flinders Street. There's a number that have been blocked.
[00:21:30 - 00:21:36] Mitch: Up, but most of them have been blocked up. There were 11 in total. Yeah, they were really cool.
[00:21:37 - 00:21:38] Ilana: Yeah.
[00:21:38 - 00:21:49] Mitch: But even that, that first one there was. There was pushback from the local establishments. The. There was like a local bank and.
[00:21:50 - 00:21:50] Ilana: Yeah.
[00:21:50 - 00:22:23] Mitch: Several other businesses that were like, even the site of the Palisade sort of fencing and the men's and women's above was too much indecency to have in public and that such indecent things should not be. Shouldn't be seen in public. Apparently even the AIA kind of had that opinion. Or the Institute of Architects. I don't think there was an Australian Institute of Architects at that time, but that sort of, you know, the body that represented architects at the time had this opinion that public toilets should be hidden away.
[00:22:23 - 00:22:24] Ilana: That's pretty horrifying.
[00:22:24 - 00:22:25] Mitch: I know.
[00:22:25 - 00:22:28] Ilana: Shameful. Well, they have an opportunity to advocate at the moment.
[00:22:28 - 00:22:28] Mitch: That's right.
[00:22:29 - 00:23:42] Ilana: But just this week, it seems to really be the week for toilet toilets talk in our industry to listeners because Parlor, a very progressive industry body and advocacy group for equity, equality and gender in our profession, shared some really important, interesting content, including the current submission to the Australian Building Codes Board being put together by Alison Cox. And for all the built environment professionals listening at the moment, you have a great opportunity to offer and add your name and offer your thoughts to support the submission or put in your own. To change the national construction code in 2025 to include all gender facilities. And this is a really, really important moment and a chance that architecture is in service of the problem. Architecture doesn't always get a chance to fix problems, but we have an excellent opportunity now to come together and move us and move society in the direction of supporting that change. So, Paul, is. Mitch. A little segue, but I thought. It's an important public service announcement.
[00:23:42 - 00:23:42] Mitch: Totally.
[00:23:42 - 00:23:43] Ilana: Listeners this evening.
[00:23:43 - 00:24:14] Mitch: Yeah, no, it's a really interesting one as well, because it's not just being able to provide all gender facilities where you would previously have to provide, you know, separate male and female ones. It's also just that language or gender, because, you know, everyone would sort of be aware of the fact that unisex toilets exist, but we're required to label them as such. Unisex. To label them as all gender is, you know, is a performance solution. We gotta.
[00:24:14 - 00:24:17] Ilana: Yeah. It's not compliant with the construction code. That's right.
[00:24:18 - 00:24:19] Mitch: It's a hoop you have to jump through.
[00:24:19 - 00:25:54] Ilana: Exactly. And there are ways through it with the right motivations. Totally. Nothing is that hard. Where there's a will, there's a way, I always say. But it does present a challenge for building owners, for clients, for professionals working on the project. And this is my little prediction. But I feel that going forward, once we get over this very necessary moment, get over the hump from a legislative perspective, so to speak, the law will support the progress we want to see. Much like the changes socially in society that was felt after the marriage equality plebiscite vote. And that was a very difficult and painful time for much of the LGBTQIA community that had to suffer plebiscite and fight for their own rights in that process. But as a result, when the law supported people for marriage equality, we came to a place where society shifted with that. And my little prediction, you heard it here first on radio, Karen, is that our building cultural, architectural culture and our society at large will shift with this NCC change. So it's very important, if you're in a position to offer your contributions to these submissions or write your own, please do so. But to sidestep from the call to arms is the thought that we shape our cities and our cities shape us. This is a natural assumption, isn't it, Mitch?
[00:25:54 - 00:26:55] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Completely, completely. No, I totally agree with that, actually. To sort of sidestep right back to it. I just want to tie up, you know, why all gender is an important distinction instead of unisex, because it sort of just the language around it. Why would that change what it's like to go to the toilet? But, you know, the reality for many people is that, you know, they don't identify with that gender binary. And having to choose a toilet that, you know, literally just through its language enforces that gender binary, you know, is a bit of a confronting situation that, you know, is really not ideal. And there's no need to be putting people through that stress. You know, it doesn't. It doesn't really make a difference. I mean, you know, there's really, like, solid evidence and data out there that, you know, trans people in particular, like, will just avoid the toilet if they don't have somewhere that they feel comfortable going. And that can lead to all sorts of issues, you know, medical as well.
[00:26:55 - 00:27:01] Ilana: You know, terrible, terrible health outcomes and not. Not to mention stress outcomes in general, but.
[00:27:01 - 00:27:01] Mitch: Exactly.
[00:27:01 - 00:27:02] Ilana: If we think.
[00:27:02 - 00:27:03] Mitch: Isolating.
[00:27:03 - 00:27:59] Ilana: Yeah. If we think about groups who really, also really benefit from improved legislation and regulation around, and the ability to do this under the NCC a bit easier. It's primary schools. And when we build primary schools, one of the most important things is to be able to supervise kids so they're safe and comfortable and Using amenities. They're not bullying each other, they're not running the tap and flooding the whole bathroom. And private floor to ceiling separate cabins also support children feeling safe and happy at school. So it really, in many ways it completely transcends the gender question. And even imagine in a workplace, you want to brush your teeth after lunch or something, you don't necessarily want everyone seeing you do that. So there's so many ways this is going to benefit everyone, right?
[00:27:59 - 00:28:18] Mitch: Yeah, if you like. Yeah. If we provide cubicles that have the sink within them and, you know, the floor to ceiling door and. Yeah. That privacy. No, totally. Like, you know, like you say that these changes that many people think only benefit a few often end up benefiting, you know, the majority of people.
[00:28:18 - 00:28:35] Ilana: Absolutely. Pretty much all safety and accessibility measures end up going that way. It's like subtitles. There's an overwhelming statistic that so many hearing people actually use, rely on and want subtitles on constantly on their tv.
[00:28:35 - 00:28:38] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, no, no, totally.
[00:28:39 - 00:28:40] Ilana: Pedestrian crossings.
[00:28:40 - 00:28:50] Mitch: I never used to use subtitles, but my partner does. And since then, now I always use subtitles. It's crazy. It's really interesting. It's actually such a benefit.
[00:28:51 - 00:28:52] Ilana: This will be the same.
[00:28:52 - 00:28:54] Mitch: Yeah, totally, totally.
[00:28:54 - 00:29:23] Ilana: I think our grandchildren will laugh at us for being dinosaurs in the process, but we are moving through it in the cultural moment. And I'm proud of Australia in a way that it's not causing the same moral panic as it is, I think, in America. But we need to be incredibly vigilant about transphobia and trans misogyny especially, and be at the forefront really, of. Of speaking out against that.
[00:29:24 - 00:29:24] Mitch: Yeah, totally.
[00:29:25 - 00:29:37] Ilana: We had a question. Come in. This is very exciting. It's from Jack and James in Collingwood. Do Alana and Mitch have a favorite public toilet design in Melbourne?
[00:29:38 - 00:29:41] Mitch: Oh, I think I stole your one.
[00:29:41 - 00:29:42] Ilana: Go for it.
[00:29:43 - 00:29:45] Mitch: KTA's public toilet.
[00:29:46 - 00:29:49] Ilana: That's Kirsten Thompson, our current gold medal winner legend.
[00:29:50 - 00:29:51] Mitch: Where is that one?
[00:29:52 - 00:29:54] Ilana: It's on the way to Bendigo. It's on the highway.
[00:29:55 - 00:29:56] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:29:56 - 00:29:58] Ilana: What captivates me about that project?
[00:29:58 - 00:30:01] Mitch: The jock Comedy Reserve Amenities 2019.
[00:30:01 - 00:30:05] Ilana: Oh, very good. Got it from the Mind Palace, Mitch. Very good.
[00:30:06 - 00:30:06] Mitch: Exactly.
[00:30:07 - 00:30:31] Ilana: It's often these roadside bathrooms on a freeway are the scariest places I could possibly imagine. People road trip, think about Wolf Creek, go down some sort of tangent of being afraid. And they look scary. They're dark, they're poly lit. And then this project by Kirsten Thompson Architects. It glows, doesn't it, Mitch?
[00:30:31 - 00:30:33] Mitch: It's stunning. Yeah, yeah, it's lit up.
[00:30:33 - 00:30:35] Ilana: It's polycarbonate. It is bright.
[00:30:36 - 00:30:37] Mitch: Yep.
[00:30:37 - 00:30:57] Ilana: The cubicle doors open up onto the car park, the freeway, so they're fully visible. You know, your people who are with you can observe your safety. Which is one of the safest ways to design public toilets without any kind of cul de sac or corners or twists and turns. The door opens straight out.
[00:30:57 - 00:31:00] Mitch: Yeah, no, it's such a beautiful structure.
[00:31:00 - 00:31:00] Ilana: It's.
[00:31:00 - 00:31:29] Mitch: It's this really long linear public toilet and that polycarbonate, you know, semi transparent, a material that you're talking about that is sort of opaque enough to provide complete privacy, but transparent enough to sort of let the light in and passively light it and then glow at night when the artificial lights are on. Sort of curves like a ribbon, ribbon up this, this linear structure and the roof above it provides protection.
[00:31:29 - 00:31:30] Ilana: Looks like it floats too.
[00:31:30 - 00:31:31] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:31:31 - 00:31:31] Ilana: Hovers.
[00:31:31 - 00:31:34] Mitch: Yeah, it's awesome. And they have these really good chain gutters as well.
[00:31:34 - 00:31:35] Ilana: Rain chains.
[00:31:35 - 00:31:35] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:31:36 - 00:31:42] Ilana: Love the Japanese style. They, they came to the Australian scene from Japan. Very popular in areas of high rainfall.
[00:31:42 - 00:32:32] Mitch: Yeah, they're so good. And, and. Yeah, no, each, each of the toilets is a, is a self contained unit. So it's, it's actually like the gold standard for public toilet amenities as well. People have complete privacy to do whatever they need to do. Most people just need to go to the toilet. But you, yeah, like I said, people need to, you know, you have, take, take medicine or you know, like Muslim people, for example, perform ablutions. Like to have that, that whole space to yourself is so important. And especially in a culturally diverse area where it is, it's a really incredible amenity. And that long linear nature of the toilet means that there's, it's the, it's really easy to passively surveil. Yeah, it's a great design. Outstanding award winner.
[00:32:33 - 00:32:58] Ilana: For good reason. Yeah, I think it's worth also just making it super clear for the listeners the kind of gold standard design that we're advocating for in all gender facilities that would like to see everywhere is basically the same experience as using an airplane cubicle toilet. You go in, you close the door, it's fully private, it's all yours.
[00:32:58 - 00:32:59] Mitch: Maybe a bit more spacious.
[00:32:59 - 00:33:20] Ilana: Oh, definitely more spacious. Certainly less turbulence and more spacious. But that, that level of privacy and comfort and amenity is what we'd love to see. We have another question that's come in. The phone's ringing hot tonight. Because public toilets are really important.
[00:33:20 - 00:33:21] Mitch: It's a big deal.
[00:33:21 - 00:33:57] Ilana: It's a big deal. And this question has come all the way from Adelaide. Get out of here, Ham. Adelaide said you talked about avoidance of public facilities, hostile architecture, gendering of spaces, etc. Does this undermine the public in the public toilet? And if it's not for everyone, is it public? Fantastic question and provocation, Hamish. Thank you so much for sending that one through. And also a very big thank you for Jack and James earlier for asking about our favorite toilet. If it's not for everyone, is it public?
[00:33:59 - 00:34:39] Mitch: Totally. It's completely useless for a portion of the community. Right. It doesn't mean anything for them if it's not. It's not accessible. Or if it. You know, to loop it back to the changing places facility in Mordiallock, you know that that provides amenity to people with disabilities like no other public toilet in the area does. I completely agree. Yeah. No, public. Public toilets. Public amenities to. You know, is a good word to think about them more broadly than just toilets, because their public amenities can do so much for. For the community and for society and they can facilitate. Yeah. So so much more than many of.
[00:34:39 - 00:34:55] Ilana: Them currently do for getting people out of. Out of the home and into the public realm. To be included, to participate in society. That's what it's about. And for a while, women weren't. Women were excluded from public life. Really.
[00:34:55 - 00:34:56] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:34:56 - 00:35:01] Ilana: And how did that begin in your history? There is women's inclusion.
[00:35:01 - 00:35:07] Mitch: There was a 43 year gap between the first public toilet for men and the first public toilet for women.
[00:35:07 - 00:35:10] Ilana: Whoa, Whoa, whoa. In 43 years.
[00:35:10 - 00:35:13] Mitch: 43 years, yeah.
[00:35:14 - 00:35:18] Ilana: Between the first public toilet for men and the first public toilet for women.
[00:35:19 - 00:35:34] Mitch: Yeah, the first public toilet for men. It was in 1859, a pissoir, a French invention which is. It was basically just a urinal with some privacy screening that went directly into the gutter.
[00:35:37 - 00:35:38] Ilana: Grim.
[00:35:38 - 00:35:44] Mitch: Yeah. Well, that's all it was back then as well. Before the sewerage system came in. Everything just went into the yarra.
[00:35:45 - 00:35:48] Ilana: And then there was a typhoid outbreak and public health got it together.
[00:35:48 - 00:35:50] Mitch: Yeah. There's a whole Royal commission about it.
[00:35:52 - 00:35:54] Ilana: We love a royal commission in this country.
[00:35:54 - 00:36:19] Mitch: Don't we get things done. Yeah, no, no, no. Well, yeah, as a result of that, it got us the sewerage system. But another example is the first woman in Parliament didn't have a. Didn't have a toilet for 31 years in Victoria. Yeah. So the Parliament House of Victoria didn't.
[00:36:19 - 00:36:22] Ilana: Have a toilet for women for 31 years?
[00:36:22 - 00:36:33] Mitch: Well, for more than that. But, yeah, from the. From the first woman being elected to Parliament to Being able to relieve themselves at work. Yeah. 31 years.
[00:36:33 - 00:36:54] Ilana: There's a famous. There's even in that film. This just reminds me of the. Of the film about. About the NASA engineers and how they. They had to run to a completely different building because there was no facility for women and there was no facility for women of color. Hidden Figures. Excellent movie.
[00:36:55 - 00:36:57] Mitch: Yeah, it's on my list. I must confess.
[00:36:58 - 00:37:22] Ilana: That's a. That's a good. That's a good moment in the film. That's. It really goes to show that the people we exclude from public life, the people we exclude from participation, that we try to take away or hold back their own agency, are the ones who we don't provide these amenities to.
[00:37:23 - 00:37:38] Mitch: Yeah. I mean, like, you know, it's that massive gap from men having a toilet to women having a toilet. People with disabilities weren't legislated the right to be able to go to the toilet in public until 1992.
[00:37:39 - 00:37:40] Ilana: 1992.
[00:37:40 - 00:37:42] Mitch: It's like. It's so much more recent than you would think.
[00:37:42 - 00:37:47] Ilana: These are some really confronting statistics tonight, Mitch. Wow.
[00:37:48 - 00:38:01] Mitch: Yeah. Well, it was only 2013 that trans people were allowed to use the. The toilet of their, like, that they identified with. I mean, like, they were doing it before. Like, people have been going to the toilet they identify with forever. But it became illegal to discriminate against.
[00:38:01 - 00:38:05] Ilana: Them in 2013, so this protection was put in place.
[00:38:05 - 00:38:06] Mitch: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:38:08 - 00:38:09] Ilana: Goodness, that's really shocking.
[00:38:09 - 00:38:35] Mitch: It's a history of discrimination. But again, like I was saying in the beginning, it's also a history of societal progress. Right. Another, like, really interesting, like, little point of how, like, toilets represent, you know, the progress of society is something you might see in many cafes or like trendy cafes or something, is the thank you hand soap and who gives a crap toilet paper.
[00:38:35 - 00:38:35] Ilana: Yeah.
[00:38:36 - 00:38:39] Mitch: That, like, in our toilets, we express our values.
[00:38:40 - 00:38:45] Ilana: Yeah. It's a bit of a flag of being conscious or sensitive.
[00:38:45 - 00:38:46] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:38:48 - 00:38:48] Ilana: In some settings.
[00:38:48 - 00:38:52] Mitch: How inclusive are your toilets? You know, that's pretty much.
[00:38:52 - 00:39:32] Ilana: And that's the reality that institutions are confronted with. So, like university clients who need to build new buildings, need to build new campuses, they have an obligation to provide amenity for all of their building users, for everyone. So they're the ones that will also very much as large procurers of architecture, as large clients would really benefit from the future NCC changes that's reflected on. And institutions that have really strong union bodies or strong student unions get pushed pretty hard on being better outcomes.
[00:39:32 - 00:40:13] Mitch: Yeah. Yeah. Unions are an interesting one. I worked on a project a little while ago that was a student accommodation building and they had all gender toilet facilities throughout the building. But on the ground floor it was required to put in more gendered toilets. And, and part of the rationale behind that was because there was an older audience that would be going and using the, the downstairs toilet because it was a more communal space and they might have an event or something. So like, you know, just to kind of, to, to speak to the way that like different groups have different, you know, levels of, I guess like comfort and also.
[00:40:14 - 00:40:17] Ilana: And yet nobody struggles when they're on an airplane.
[00:40:17 - 00:40:18] Mitch: No, totally.
[00:40:18 - 00:40:21] Ilana: Everyone knows where to go, everyone knows what to do.
[00:40:21 - 00:40:23] Mitch: Yeah, exactly, exactly.
[00:40:23 - 00:40:25] Ilana: Always. I always come back to that point.
[00:40:25 - 00:40:26] Mitch: No, I think it's a good one. I like that.
[00:40:26 - 00:40:58] Ilana: I think I'd encourage anyone that is feeling a little bit uncomfortable with this conversation to just sit, think about where that sits in your body and why you, why you might feel uncomfortable with that and keep it open for the possibilities of design innovation that we, that we see in the, in the public realm. Are there some projects in around Kingston area that were built or unbuilt that you also think are excellent?
[00:40:59 - 00:41:19] Mitch: Oh, that I think are excellent. Well, one's, one's. One's unbuilt. I know that, you know, there are several sort of exo loos that I think they probably are still around in the city of Kingston. In many places they've, they've gone away. This exo is completely automated, self cleaning.
[00:41:19 - 00:41:19] Ilana: Horrible music.
[00:41:20 - 00:42:05] Mitch: Horrible music. Doors automatically open after 20 minutes. Yeah, I think that those are sort of a bit of a, bit of a bit of a low point for the public toilets. And I think that in, in doing, in doing some of my research for this, I found like a bit of a trend in what sort of common characteristics of like good toilets. And yeah, it's kind of funny because a lot of them do have these very similar characteristics. And one of them interestingly is sort of like the deconstruction of the cubicle in the wash basin and not having them as private spaces, which I think.
[00:42:06 - 00:42:07] Ilana: The communal hand washing.
[00:42:07 - 00:43:07] Mitch: A communal hand washing, that's right. And it's also out, it's not necessarily behind a wall or something. So there's a lot of passive surveillance there. That's an interesting one because it kind of goes against that gold standard that we were talking about. And it would be like way better for these public toilets to just have fully enclosed airplane style toilet experience. But a lot of these newer, like designer dunnies, you'll Find that they have that communal hand washing out the front, the cubicles that open directly out to that. So there's a lot of passive surveillance there. Also a lot of natural ventilation. The roofs are often like a meter or so off of the walls. They sort of hover above the facility to provide protection from the elements, but also provide a lot of natural light in that way. So you don't have to be running the lighting during the day, only the.
[00:43:07 - 00:43:15] Ilana: Night, which is much more economical for councils and much better for electricity consumption. Much safer.
[00:43:15 - 00:43:46] Mitch: Yeah. Yeah, totally. No, so, like, it's. It's good. There has been a lot of. There has been a good trend towards better public toilets. I think that where we're sort of going in the. In the right direction with it, the sort of. The importance of it is. Is kind of taking off. There's a. There's a really cool dunny in Bondi beach that's sort of critically acclaimed and it is just stunning. You know, like it's a feature.
[00:43:46 - 00:43:48] Ilana: What makes it beautiful? Why do you love it?
[00:43:50 - 00:43:55] Mitch: To get architectural. It embraces the. The fifth facade. It has this beautiful green roof.
[00:43:55 - 00:43:56] Ilana: What's the fifth facade?
[00:43:56 - 00:43:57] Mitch: The fifth facade is the roof.
[00:43:57 - 00:43:57] Ilana: Okay.
[00:43:58 - 00:44:03] Mitch: It's the roof often overlooked for no good reason.
[00:44:03 - 00:44:07] Ilana: So it's embedded in, like a hobbit hole. It's not.
[00:44:07 - 00:44:07] Mitch: No, no, no.
[00:44:07 - 00:44:08] Ilana: It's actually.
[00:44:08 - 00:44:53] Mitch: It's actually. No, it's not embedded. It's the. The roof is kind of like this floating plane above it. It's clad in these recycled timber battens, which are really like. They're spaced quite tightly together. It's really nice. And then behind that, the concrete ventilates. And because of the second skin, it's able to do so while providing a significant amount of privacy. But the roof is a real standout feature of it. It comes out to a rounded point. It like a triangle. And there's a hole in that roof and there's all of the greenery overflows, you know, down that skylight.
[00:44:53 - 00:44:54] Ilana: This sounds so lush.
[00:44:55 - 00:44:59] Mitch: It is so lush. It's so lush. It's a. Yeah. Really, really beautiful toy.
[00:44:59 - 00:45:10] Ilana: Designer Dunny. So I love that phrase. You're quite right. There's particularly the ones in Japan designed by star architects. Some of the most famous architects in Japan do public toilets.
[00:45:10 - 00:45:11] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:45:11 - 00:45:22] Ilana: They have such a civic responsibility in their society, it would, I imagine, almost be moral duty to design an excellent public toilet as well as an exemplar of a very important critical building.
[00:45:23 - 00:46:46] Mitch: Yeah. No. Japan. Japan hits a home run with their public Toilets that like, they have, they have really beautiful, their public toilets can be these really beautiful urban objects, you know, and really clever design in them. There are so many great ones. I'd encourage everyone to just look up like, is it the Tokyo project toilets? Just look up Japan toilets. You'll find it, it's so good architecture. It's, it's, they're the best. There's one in particular that I find really interesting. It's on the outskirts of Tokyo and it's, it's, it is this glass box in a, in a 200 square meter field of flowers and greenery. And then There is a 2 meter high log roll fence around it to provide privacy. And you walk down this beautiful stone path. It's next to a train station in this sort of like semi rural area. You walk down this beautiful. You lock the door, the gate of the fence behind you and you walk down this beautiful stone path to this clear glass dunny and you sit on your throne and do your business. And I love that. It's so funny because I don't know if you ever, if you ever watch Rick and Morty, but that's like, exactly, that's, that's Rick's like dream toilet that he made a whole universe for that. You can just go to Japan and experience for yourself.
[00:46:47 - 00:46:56] Ilana: Oh man, I really want to go back to Japan. If anyone's lucky enough to travel there, it is like Disneyland for adults. I say architectural paradise.
[00:46:57 - 00:47:08] Mitch: There is a whole architectural tour of just going to toilets in Japan. In Norway you find interesting ones in Europe, like, yeah, it's a.
[00:47:08 - 00:47:09] Ilana: Pay for the ones in Europe.
[00:47:09 - 00:47:42] Mitch: You do, you do. There's a whole business model around it in, in Europe. This is one really interesting one thing. It's called to the loo and you cost like 2 pound 2 or something like that or you know, a couple of dollars, which is much more expensive than the loos usually are over there. Most of them you have to pay for. But this one is particularly expensive. But the whole idea is that it's very well maintained, it's very clean, it has everything that you need. It's a wonderful experience. And then on your way out, you get 75% the value of what you paid in a voucher and you can use it at their gift store.
[00:47:45 - 00:47:46] Ilana: That's hilarious.
[00:47:46 - 00:47:55] Mitch: So it's sort of like the same cost as going to, you know, another and any other toilet at the end of the day just spend a couple extra bucks at the store.
[00:47:55 - 00:47:59] Ilana: Except the business interests suck you back in and we've almost come full circle.
[00:47:59 - 00:48:00] Mitch: Exit through the gift shop.
[00:48:00 - 00:48:30] Ilana: Oh, no, that's so funny. Why do you think public toilets captivate people so much? No, I've heard stories of toddlers being really obsessed and wanting to, like, wander in and look in. By the way, anyone listening? If you have a toddler who's curious about public toilets, text us, Let us know, please, because we don't have enough data to substantiate this anecdotal theory, but we've definitely heard of it and seen it happen.
[00:48:31 - 00:48:38] Mitch: Yeah. You know of one, right? What are they called? Like, the Toilet Inspector? A little one in. In your family circles?
[00:48:38 - 00:49:08] Ilana: Kids. The kids, they get called the toilet inspector. But I think it's. It's unbridled curiosity. Perhaps before they grow up and learn to have shame around bodily functions or just existing in public and before that shame is piled on. I think toddlers represent some sort of magical, pure innocence, perhaps. Yeah, that's what I wonder.
[00:49:08 - 00:49:21] Mitch: They can. Yeah, like, I think that they can be really, really interesting objects out there on their own. You know, these little pavilions in the middle of play parks. They can be really. Yeah, I don't know. It's interesting.
[00:49:22 - 00:49:30] Ilana: And they. They change over time as well. You also posted beautiful photos in your Instagram of the Art Deco public toilet.
[00:49:30 - 00:50:01] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right next to the. The Changing Places facility in Mordialloc. Yeah, that's a beautiful one. It's a. It's. It's so cool because it's so typical of. Of Art Deco architecture style. And how funny to put that on a toilet. On a public toilet. This thing that so many people think is unimportant, you know, like. What do you mean, the architecture of public toilets? There's no architecture. They're public toilets. Like, no, we in. You know, we made an Art Deco one. It's that important.
[00:50:02 - 00:50:06] Ilana: Yeah, exactly. We captured it in the style.
[00:50:06 - 00:50:07] Mitch: Yeah, that's right.
[00:50:07 - 00:50:34] Ilana: And we always do. We've just received another text message. There's no name, but thank you. For who? Whoever sent that one in. And the comment is they have some cracking luxury temporary setups at Glastonbury. I guess that's a big music festival that happens in the uk. Glastonbury, hugely popular. And for anyone who's been to a music festival knows how challenging and at times disgusting they can go.
[00:50:34 - 00:50:34] Mitch: So wrong.
[00:50:34 - 00:50:38] Ilana: For want of a better word, the experience with Portaloos and Dunny's is.
[00:50:38 - 00:50:39] Mitch: I'm so glad to hear that they've got a good one.
[00:50:40 - 00:50:42] Ilana: Luxury setup. I wonder what that One's like, probably.
[00:50:42 - 00:50:43] Mitch: Have to pay extra for it.
[00:50:44 - 00:50:46] Ilana: Surely it'll be free.
[00:50:46 - 00:50:47] Mitch: It's in Europe.
[00:50:48 - 00:50:51] Speaker A: Not after Brexit. It's not true.
[00:50:54 - 00:51:33] Ilana: How would you compare the growth that we've seen in Morty Alec from that art deco facility that has all the classic colors with the red and the cream and the green and the bit more ornament on it. Very recognizable to the contemporary brick expression. The contemporary brick1 by K20 and probably, probably that art deco one was by some humble in house public work architect, probably working for the city. Did you do some research on, could you find who the original architect was at that one did?
[00:51:33 - 00:51:34] Mitch: Couldn't find a lead.
[00:51:35 - 00:51:49] Ilana: Yeah, probably, probably an in house job. Councils at the time had in house designers and all the parishes did. So returning to my query, how would you note that change over time?
[00:51:50 - 00:52:48] Mitch: Yeah, well I think that the shift, you can see a real shift in priorities. I think the what's evident in the change from the art deco toilet to the changing places facility that by the way is like what, 100 meters away from one another. They're quite close. Is that the new one considers its accessibility significantly more. They're an interesting example, they're an interesting pair because they're both quite beautiful in their own ways. But the art deco one like you know, doesn't cater for all people and there are also some blind corners. You know, the ventilation isn't as well provided, you know, so the sort of the architectural technology, you know, like the knowledge, the industry knowledge, you can see that change a lot between the two of those toilets.
[00:52:50 - 00:53:01] Ilana: Absolutely. Also I think not just aesthetically but there's, there's something about the, the art deco one looks very similar on the inside as it does on the outside.
[00:53:01 - 00:53:02] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:53:02 - 00:53:06] Ilana: But then with K20s it's a bit of a different experience.
[00:53:07 - 00:54:08] Mitch: Yeah. I actually found it to be a little bit jarring, you know like when I. So yeah, I saw that, I saw that facility get built and then you know, when it was there in all its glory, I was like, wow, that's awesome. Eventually got around one, one early morning to photograph it and you know, get a really good close look at the details and get my head around it. And also going inside to one of the accessible toilets, there's a real shift in the design language. As you go inside it's sort of, it's all sort of from the outside, beautiful sand colored brick, expressive, expressive curved forms. And then when you go inside it's this completely metal experience. The sort of, the color temperature of it changes. A little bit. I sort of. It feels like that feels like you're watching a movie and the color grade changes. You know, it's sort of. I guess it's a stylistic choice. It's also a cleanliness choice when we're thinking about toilets that obviously, you know, the stainless steel is easy to clean and doesn't corrode.
[00:54:08 - 00:54:09] Ilana: That's.
[00:54:09 - 00:54:09] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:54:09 - 00:54:10] Ilana: Needs to be corrosion resistant.
[00:54:10 - 00:54:11] Mitch: Yeah.
[00:54:11 - 00:54:18] Ilana: Down by. Down by Coast. And I think that that polycarbonate sort of mottled skylight continues inside, doesn't it?
[00:54:20 - 00:54:30] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does. It does. That's actually like, a really interesting point because there is an element from the outside that continues on to the inside. That natural skylight.
[00:54:30 - 00:55:24] Ilana: That's something lighter. That's true. And to let the listeners in on why that is often so appealing, we often look for that. We. We try to design that with good architecture. You want to treat the interior and the exterior as part of the same building, as showing the exterior on the inside, capturing that in the interior design and having some of those elements carry through. And it can be material. It could be the color, it could be a spatial feature. You know, a shape comes through, and the feeling on the inside is like that. So that's. That's something that we look for when we think about what's a great building. And also, I love it when every side of a building is different. That's really important for me personally, that I'm interested in each angle and each way you approach the building is really different. And this one does that as well.
[00:55:24 - 00:55:34] Mitch: Yeah, yeah. This one's really cool. It could sort of. Yeah, it plays with concave and concept convex curves. Different. Different impressions of the. The seashell, the figure ground of it. It's really cool.
[00:55:36 - 00:55:37] Ilana: Technically challenging with brick.
[00:55:38 - 00:56:47] Mitch: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I find that part of it really interesting. I. I didn't. I sort of. I read the planning application for that. That building after I photographed it, but before I had done that, I formed some opinions on how I thought it got its architectural style. And, you know, two of the other facilities that I photographed and uploaded recently is that art deco toilet. But then there's also a barbecue pavilion just a bit further down the road, another, like, 50 meters away in Mordiallock. And I actually thought that it really drew on its context quite well. The art deco toilet steps out at its. At the. At the facade. The parapet of it steps out in the classic art deco style. And the. The. The barbecue pavilion actually has, you know, these. These columns that taper out at the bottom. And you put those two things together and you get the form of this new modern contemporary expression that emerges out of the ground from its base and then goes back out to the, to the sky in this celebration.
[00:56:47 - 00:57:26] Ilana: And there's these bits that step out at the top are really legible, actually. It's very, very clear. And I never noticed until actually I saw your photos side by side, where you put your photos up on Instagram. They're really beautiful. For the listeners, check out Mitch Untitled. That's the correct handle. Yes. And just have a look how those art deco ideas and memories that the community has, because architectural carries our memories got brought into this new, this new building that represents more of us being together and playing in the sand.
[00:57:26 - 00:57:59] Mitch: Yeah, yeah. No, it's, it's, it's really nice. It's a nice journey. That, that series, the barbecue pavilion that was built like ages ago. I don't know, I don't, I couldn't find out when it was built, but you know, earlier than the Art deco toilet, I'm sure this communal facility to bring people together and then you have the Art deco toilet that, you know, expresses these interesting architectural ideas of the time. And then the next step along that journey is interesting architectural ideas in a public toilet that brings people together in the community. You know, it's. What a crescendo.
[00:58:00 - 00:58:35] Ilana: Great work, K20, very well done, K20. And to all architects who are pushing to do good work, good toilets, good public toilets, and who will be putting in submissions for improvements on the NCC 2025. Your final reminder to our text, who texted us about Glastonbury. We're unable to receive your image, so in the last few moments, if you want to send us a written description of the luxury setup of Glastonbury, we'll happily read it out on the air. But in the meantime, I'll ask you, Mitch, what gives you hope?
[00:58:36 - 00:59:16] Mitch: What gives me hope? Just some of these really good looking public toilets. KTA is one, you know, on, on that just, you know, beaut, like really good, beautiful architecture serving really strong functions that, that power of architecture being demonstrated in the public realm. Winning awards and providing greater amenity to people. You know, like lifting our society up, allowing more people to do more things. Yeah. The improvement of accessibility, design, it's all so good that that gives me hope. Seeing really cool toilets gives me hope.
[00:59:19 - 00:59:39] Ilana: I love that. Thank you so much for joining us tonight tonight, Mitch, and for sharing all your thoughts and very thorough research on public toilets and the history of public amenities. And there's definitely. So much I learned this evening and plenty for both myself and the listeners to take away.
[00:59:39 - 00:59:40] Mitch: And thank you so much for having me.
[00:59:40 - 01:00:06] Radio Architecture Outro Thank you. Thanks for joining me for another evening of radio architecture with Alana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrion studio on Bonarong Country. You can replay the show wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for tuning in and supporting Community Radio. Take care.
[01:00:08 - 01:00:25] Station ID
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aged-care dementia healthcare rural

9 | August 02, 2023

Simon Drysdale on design for care services in regional Victoria

Simon Drysdale is an architect, educator and advocate. Specialising in innovative aged-care and dementia care design, Simon is the founder of consultancy Care3d; a board member of Heathcote Dementia Alliance, and a Member of the Dementia Alliance International (DAI) Environmental Design Special Interest Group (ED-SiG). Simon is interested in inclusive urban design and believes that care enabled environments should be a positive reciprocal relationship experience. This is critical to health, well-being, education, and rehabilitation. As a passionate educator, Simon regularly supervises masters thesis students and leads Design Studios at RMIT Architecture & Urban Design. Prior to his career in architecture, Simon studied Nursing.

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Simon Drysdale on design for care services in regional Victoria
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[00:00:57 - 00:02:26] Ilana: Good evening from beautiful Bonarong country. So glad to be broadcasting to you live on Radio Carom from the Karam Karam swamp. Tonight is also a full moon and it's incredibly beautiful outside and a really good chance to reflect on the Bunurong people's continuing connection to sky as well as land and water. Welcome back for another evening of Radio Architecture with Alana Rasbash. My conversation partner tonight is Simon Drysdale. He is an architect and educator and advocate specializing in innovative aged care and dementia care design. Simon is the founder of consultancy Care3D, a board member of the Heathcote Dementia alliance and a member of the Dementia Alliance International Environmental design special interest Group. Simon is interested in inclusive urban design and believes that care enabled environments should be a positive reciprocal relationship experience. This is critical to health well being, education and rehabilitation as a passionate educator. And Simon regularly supervises master's thesis students and leads design studios at RMIT Architecture and Urban Design. Prior to his career in architecture, Simon studied nursing. Welcome to Radio Karam Simon.
[00:02:27 - 00:02:27] Simon: Hello.
[00:02:28 - 00:02:29] Ilana: So glad to have you on.
[00:02:30 - 00:02:39] Simon: Thank you, thank you. It's an absolute pleasure to be here and congratulations on the aspirations and, and what you're trying to achieve here. It's lovely to be here. Thank you.
[00:02:39 - 00:03:07] Ilana: Thanks. I'm really, really enjoying it and having such varied conversations every single week and very keen to jump into some of the threads that we've jumped left slowly for our listeners so far. We've, we've mentioned aging and place and I'm sure earlier in the show and prior episodes. I'm sure that'll come up later in our conversation tonight. The first question like to ask is what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:03:09 - 00:03:54] Simon: The earliest memory of place that I have and I say place because it wasn't a building and I grew up in country Victoria right down the bottom end down in Northeast Gippsland down towards Salem Bansdale. And my earliest memory is a place called the Blue Pools which is on the bottom elbow of the, of the mountains that run down through there near a little township called Briargalong and the Blue pools are fondly memory. It was a fond memory for me because it's clear blue, you know, clear water and it's coming straight from the mountains and you jump off the granite rocks into clear water. It was a really good memorable sacred place.
[00:03:55 - 00:04:00] Ilana: Wow, that's a really beautiful memory. I want to look it up and go there maybe in the summer.
[00:04:00 - 00:04:12] Simon: Yeah, I'll do so you can go camping there if you want. And there's a fantastic drive from Brayag long up to the Dargo High plains. So you can get up to the Dago pub, you know, should you wish to. Yeah, it's pretty good.
[00:04:12 - 00:04:15] Ilana: And that pub is very well known in Dago as well.
[00:04:16 - 00:04:16] Ilana: That's interesting.
[00:04:17 - 00:04:50] Ilana: You mentioned a place in a place in nature as well. You're the first one of my guests so far that is, that is connected so much away from a building in that thought and also definitely the first architect that has not mentioned a building in response to that question. And I really love that. And wonder whether your interest and love towards nature is something that has underpinned your passion for rural work and work with rural communities to keep them connected to country and nature and landscape.
[00:04:50 - 00:05:58] Simon: Oh yeah, without a doubt. I mean, who doesn't love a good road trip? I mean Emily, if you're listening, that's my wife. Our honeymoon was a road trip. We had nothing, we had no money and we borrowed my father in law's car and we drove it from Victoria to Western Australia, zigzagging back and forth from the coast out to the desert. Such as our mutual love of good road trip. I think that's a really lovely Australian thing as well. Absolutely. In terms of nature, big sky, the idea of wind and the seasons are an essential thing to be connected with. They tell us it's a time, it's clock, it's celestial and, and, and being on country is important. It's very fascinating and maybe we'll talk about this a little bit later on, but the emergent kind of importance of first nations knowledge systems in regards to the celestial and how that's influencing the model of care and some theoretical, some new theories in terms of the model care is really interesting as well.
[00:05:58 - 00:05:59] Ilana: Now go on, say more.
[00:05:59 - 00:06:33] Simon: Oh, well, it's real memory, for example. I mean we've already talked about, if we mentioned dementia. We've talked about, you know, cognitive decline. Cognitive decline in that scenario. Well, narrative based memory systems are a better way to retain information, are a better way to retain stories, place value systems than the traditional way of boxing housing information such as the great model of memory.
[00:06:34 - 00:06:37] Ilana: So people connect the stories better, much, much better than.
[00:06:37 - 00:07:18] Simon: And live longer with them. And so that's just an example. And then there's a whole bunch of other sort of freely available bush tucker that has good impact on the body and the mind. So I think that in time that, you know, as a culture in Australia, if we're able to merge in those things, then, then fantastic. But in reflection to your question about did that early experience influence things later in life, it's great that these things are being discussed now. I mean, my children are far more exposed to first nations information stories than.
[00:07:19 - 00:07:21] Ilana: My generation, certainly than mine as well.
[00:07:21 - 00:07:44] Simon: I mean, it's just. I think back and I think, why wasn't all of the stuff part of my primary school kinder. Primary school education? It was like it didn't exist. An absolute crime, especially growing up in Gippsland because there's so many. Like a lot of other places around Australia, but there was a lot of other very sacred places that were just off the map because they weren't spoken.
[00:07:44 - 00:07:50] Ilana: About or shared or destroyed in the. In the process of colonization.
[00:07:50 - 00:07:51] Simon: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:07:51 - 00:07:59] Ilana: Bruce Pasco's Dark Emu really describes how the sheep worked ahead of the people and ate away at all the places, at all the agriculture.
[00:07:59 - 00:08:00] Simon: Yeah.
[00:08:00 - 00:08:03] Ilana: And then the celestial mark as the rocks were moved away.
[00:08:03 - 00:08:17] Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's sort of like. And Mallacuda, that's important for. For him and other people. That's right at the edge of the sort of. The area which I was growing up just to sort of contextualize, you know.
[00:08:18 - 00:08:30] Ilana: Importance of that, your time on the coast as well. So how do you try and incorporate nature into aged care design and dementia? Safe design.
[00:08:31 - 00:10:38] Simon: Well, I mentioned the word seasons. That's really important being. I mean, when we're in receipt of care, there's moments where there's a stillness that happens and being engaged with the more sort of ambient, kind of ambient sort of characteristics of nature, I think, enable us to reflect and put us into a different kind of mindset, a meditative sort of mindset. And sometimes that meditative mindset enables us to be both reflective and also, you know, to think about things in the future. Watching the clouds, watching the leaves move, seeing the change of things that grow in spring and change, flower, I think are all really passive ways for us to continually engage with place and environment. That's different from having a clock on a wall and the light's going on, the light's going off. Biophilia is A terrible word. It is, and it's kind of creepy, you know, but this idea of this love of nature and. And you've got all these people who do workplace, home, place, sort of, you know, assessment and use the word biophilia and go, oh, biophilia. It's this love of nature. It's fantastic. But most people respond adversely to that terms. Why, you know, why can't we have just environmental, you know, love or environmental engagement? I think from a care point of view, a palliation point of view, when someone's end of life, I think start of life, end of life. Engaging with the broader ecosystem is important. Putting your hands in soil when you're sort of dealing with large issues. What a great. What a great moment, you know, and we saw certainly through, you know, Covid, a massive research, massive resurgence in people's wanting to do, you know, front yards, backyards become, you know, productive landscapes and all those sort of things.
[00:10:38 - 00:10:46] Ilana: I'd read some studies that you absorb all the healthy microbes and all the healthy biome from the soil, that it helps regulate the gut brain link.
[00:10:46 - 00:11:10] Simon: Yeah, well, maybe that's one of the things I grew up with, growing in the country instead of, you know, just rolling around in the mud and dirt all the time. And I think that's a positive thing. And I think that when it comes to, you know, aged care, I think having access to all of those things are not only reminiscent to someone's, you know, earlier time in their life, but it means that they're also engaging with things that are growing, not things that are just shrinking and dying.
[00:11:13 - 00:11:44] Ilana: A more future, focused perspective, which is necessary sometimes when there may not be an option for a future focused perspective. But I get the sense that it was much more joyous to look at nature as a measure of time, the seasons passing, all these. In architecture, dear listeners, we call it ephemeral phenomena. But these things are intangible. The soft moments is much better than a linear metric, than a clock.
[00:11:45 - 00:12:32] Simon: Well, I mean, sort of a clock can be a little bit clinical in that circumstance. When, you know, and there's the exchange, there's like, you know, where, like, you know, if we were to sort of go, oh, you know, have you tried these seeds? Have you tried this plant? And that plant might have a different kind of alkaline kind of requirement. There's an exchange, there's reason, there's a shared value. There's something that two people can talk about. And, you know, those sort of things can mitigate loneliness. They can, you know, introduce you know, a good neighborly connection if someone's not, you know, not getting a lot of social life, you know. So I think that, you know, like fishing, like camping, there's certain cultural things that bring people together and they're able to reminisce. Reminiscent about that without it being necessarily.
[00:12:32 - 00:12:39] Ilana: You know, it's a pluralistic and it's safe and it's. It's a very diplomatic and important topic to connect over.
[00:12:39 - 00:13:06] Simon: Yeah. And some of the best care environments that I've seen certainly have, you know, like nature, fully integrated, you know, interior streets, interior planting, you know, atrium spaces and those sort of things. And that sort of, you know, changes the way in which air is handled. You know, you can integrate the scent and those sort of things into it. So there's a kind of a, a whole other, well, being, a whole more holistic kind of approach to what the care environment is.
[00:13:06 - 00:13:13] Ilana: What are some of your favorite big design ideas that go into seniors living or dementia villages?
[00:13:15 - 00:15:37] Simon: Well, dementia villages are a unique thing. They're sort of. Well, to some extent, they're. The ones that we've seen in Australia have been predominantly, you know, you know, single use. You know, of course they've got older people in them. Of course they've got people who are living with dementia, a whole spectrum of different, you know, degrees. We know that there's a whole bunch of different types of dementia. So there's no one non true, fits all. Pardon me. What I would say is that the more contemporary way of thinking is saying, why are those people siloed together into that one kind of area? Why do we do a dementia village when it can become a village for the aged or the village for, you know, for longer living? That type of latter attitude is something which is more kind of contemporary and progressive than saying what we will do is a village for people with dementia because it's like, you know, it's like putting people with cancer all in one spot or those sort of things. The mixed care environment, where you've got people living longer in different kind of, you know, environments, they're able to get the services that suit them, is a model which is getting a lot more attention. And I think that that's, that's, that's good. I think it's good if you're able to have a sort of an apartment for life next door to more care that requires a higher degree of servicing next to an intergenerational or a child care center and those sort of things. So it's not a care service silo it's relocated. Yeah. When it's done properly, you end up with the opportunity for new things to happen, new types of businesses, because we're all living longer. And so the knowledge base in someone who's a little bit older, who may have specialist knowledge in accounting, can then cross over to something else that's, to a person who's also living there, who doesn't necessarily have those skills. So there's new opportunities and I think that that's the dream is that sort of equitable approach to care, rather than putting it into boxes and sort of, you know, extracting it from the opportunity to have normalised, you know, community interaction.
[00:15:37 - 00:15:42] Ilana: And isolating people from society and further stigmatising people living with dementia.
[00:15:43 - 00:16:05] Simon: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And certainly Kingston's pretty good that way. I mean, Kingston's a long, skinny municipality. They're all taught pretty close to the beach, but the care facilities and retirement facilities that are through Kingston are relatively evenly distributed and you don't have to travel the 20, 40 kilometers to get, you know, to visit, you know, grandma.
[00:16:05 - 00:16:14] Ilana: Granddad, you know, Whereas with your rural work, that's a completely different situation as well. With the, the work you do with Heathcote Dementia Alliance.
[00:16:14 - 00:17:52] Simon: Yeah, well, distance is the sort of, you know. Yeah, it's relative because, you know, growing up in the country, a half hour drive is half hour drive, you know, I've come to visit you tonight. It's taken me an hour and hour and a half to get here and, and that, that's fine, it's relative. But when you're, you know, dealing with, you know, taking children along and those sort of things, it does add an extra kind of, you know, we're there yet, we're there yet sort of, you know, kind of component. The work with the Heathcote Dementia alliance is, you know, very much trying to come up with a housing solution, which is everywhere. It's endeavoring to come up with a housing solution that deals with the in between. In the in between fixed service silos, if you'd like. So in between health clinics, in between hospitals, their large infrastructure, complex buildings that are fixed in terms of their location. So one of the initiatives that we've been developing is a care villa. We try to avoid the word cabin because it sort of taints it in a particular way. A care villa that utilises technology through it being a demountable pre constructed structure that's brought on site via truck and then move on to site and then sort of the fit out is done by locals and the fit out can thereafter be done by a social enterprise. So the prototype, we've got one that's being fitted out at the moment in the grounds of the Heathcote Hospital. We were given the land on a peppercorn lease. Thank you, state government.
[00:17:53 - 00:17:54] Ilana: That's really exciting.
[00:17:54 - 00:18:25] Simon: Yeah. And it's being fitted out, the fit out's being done at the moment and that'll have artificial intelligence. It'll have a range of different technologies that are hardwired into it. Not just about falls detection but a range of other things. And you know, it's an 83 square meter one bedroom unit with a 0.5 bedroom that can be used either as a workplace area for someone who's providing in home care or it can be used for a, you know, a visitor.
[00:18:26 - 00:18:31] Ilana: That's a really good size. That's yeah, much, much bigger than most one or two bedroom apartments.
[00:18:31 - 00:19:34] Simon: That's right, yeah. So when, when, when our, our tradie fabricator said oh this is as big as you can go on the truck which went okay, that's the brief, you know. And, and the one in Heathcote has a quite a phenomenal panorama window that runs the entire length of the, of the truck. And you do not need to turn on the lights, you do not need to, you know, do that sort of thing during the day. It's, you see the sky, you see all the big cloud movement, you see there sort of, you know, the ridge behind Heathcote. And at the moment the kitchen's just been put in, the wardrobes are being put in and it's all dementia friendly sort of showcasing so that people from a rural and the city can go and visit this and learn and sort of perhaps maybe want to do that in their own backyard or on their farm so that someone, a loved one can live longer aging in place before they need to go into high care.
[00:19:35 - 00:19:41] Ilana: That's the main advantage of having this portable prefabricated and on the truck bed.
[00:19:41 - 00:19:42] Simon: Yeah, that's right, yeah.
[00:19:42 - 00:20:15] Ilana: I also want to add that this is core, integral sustainability really as we've been discussing on the show in previous episodes, been talking about sustainability as something that's truly sustainable, is connected to place and this is designed where it's meant to be, where it's meant to sit. It's to observe the place you're from. It's in the, in the style. I'll ask you a bit more about what are some of the architectural elements of the villa. I'm excited to hear about this, this example of really core, core sustainability.
[00:20:16 - 00:21:43] Simon: Yeah, well the healthcare to Venture alliance is made up of volunteers and I'm one of four. And we decided that we wanted to make this difference. Right. And so we were very fortunate that the proceeds from a very generous local has enabled us to build this first prototype. We've been doing a lot of fundraising and it's really important that it's reminiscent. I'll use that word, it's reminiscent. So it intentionally reminds you of from certain angles, a shed. From other angles it reminds you of a cabin. From other angles, it reminds you of that lunchroom that you might have had in the local primary school. And there's all these different things that are welded together. Bush mechanic is a big thing. The Heathcote Dementia alliance. We have a thing called the Bush, you know, the bush inspired model of care. And that's very much about a can do attitude of bringing things together that both deals for the carer and the person in receipt of care. So the Heathcote Dementia alliance comes together and we've formulated this structure that's reminiscent of a range of different building types. Types. The idea being is that it's a living example of. That reminds me of rather than it is.
[00:21:43 - 00:21:44] Ilana: That's so important.
[00:21:44 - 00:22:30] Simon: Well, it. Well, thank you. Because the reminding of is a conversation that I might have being the person living with dementia. You're my home care carer who comes in to visit me in my care villa. This reminds me of is more complex in a neural pathway than this is a villa or this is a shed. It reminds me of, puts it into time, place. It's a much more complex arrangement of thinking than saying that it is one particular thing. So reminiscence within architecture, not just within music therapy, not just reminiscence in terms of art therapy, but reminiscence in terms of the built form tapping into certain typological.
[00:22:30 - 00:22:35] Ilana: It's a therapeutic building. The building's providing a sense of therapy.
[00:22:35 - 00:22:41] Simon: Yeah, and that's, that's, that's part of. That's part of the mission statement within the Heathcote Dementia alliance, which.
[00:22:41 - 00:23:02] Ilana: Not a lot of care care typologies or care based projects. That's for our listeners, that's healthcare, aged care, palliative care. Any type of building with care at the end becomes a care typology. But a lot of those places are very functional and they have to serve this really functional purpose and not often are they therapeutic in that way.
[00:23:02 - 00:23:23] Simon: Yeah, well, I think. Well, I mean the attitudes are changing and certainly in this case we are both client and the deliverer. So we've got that benefit We've got the benefit of an enlightened host which is the Heathcote Hospital, which does provide some aged care care within the hospital.
[00:23:23 - 00:23:24] Ilana: Like an acute service.
[00:23:24 - 00:23:45] Simon: Yeah. And this is all about bringing people out of country hospital beds, bed blockers, pulling them out of that and putting them into something which is co located on a hospital ground. So they can still have the emergency care, they still have nurses if need be, but they can live in this particular scenario with home care or if.
[00:23:45 - 00:23:49] Ilana: They need lower levels of care, they can just sit, stay in their family farm on their family backyard.
[00:23:49 - 00:24:53] Simon: Yeah. And the benefit about that because part of the speculation is that there's an opportunity in the future for country hospitals to quarantine some area close to their hospital for this housing type. It means that your. And this is the kicker, it's a fantastic idea. It means that your bathroom travels with you. It means that your bed travels with you. Your paintings, your life ephemera travels with you. So if you've been out on the farm or in the country block with one of these care villas, it's then picked up and moved to the grounds of the hospital. Everything's yours. It's not like you're moving into suddenly elbow controlled basins. And it's not that clinical. It's not the clinical model of care. So that really simple idea of yours is yours. And your home travels with you has been a core thing for us to try and maintain.
[00:24:53 - 00:24:58] Ilana: And the amount of dignity that can be afforded to people in that situation is incredibly important.
[00:24:58 - 00:25:04] Simon: Yeah, well, the underpants don't move, the socks don't move. You know, little things, you know, little.
[00:25:04 - 00:25:22] Ilana: Things that make you a whole human. Yeah, they give you the whole human experience. You mentioned aging in place earlier and I've mentioned it in previous episodes as well, but I think it's actually important that we define it like what that truly is. Because I think sometimes aging in place can become a bit of an architectism.
[00:25:24 - 00:26:49] Simon: Well, yeah, well, look back in the day, you know, before, you know, mid 20th century kind of, you know, industrialized care really kicked in, the industrialised kind of hospitals and those sort of things. People would prefer to be at home when they aged. I don't think that's changed. Aging in place is living longer in the place of familiarity supported by services that enable you to do that in the most possible dignified fashion. And even better is, is when you flourish when that happens, if there's changes that happen to the way in which you love. So it's more about style of life rather than lifestyle. Right. So if you can make changes to the style of life, then sometimes you flourish. And you can flourish living with dementia. You can flourish with other types of decline. It's the circumstances of care and the attitude to how that's given. And that's where governance models become really important. And you mentioned earlier on that there's not too many places that seek to have their built form become an experiential lesson in their governance or their mission. I would say that that's part of the criteria of being an architect, working in the sector to do that.
[00:26:49 - 00:27:18] Ilana: Absolutely. That is the definition of truly successful architecture. Where you influencing the environment, we influencing human behavior in space. That environmental psychology is probably one of the main things that motivated me into the profession as well. Other, other than of course the creative temptations, but that the power of the ability to affect change environmentally just through people's experience in space.
[00:27:18 - 00:27:47] Simon: Yeah, well, the other thing is it's you know, homes, I mean homes are memory banks. You know, those have become places where, you know, you, you have birthdays and celebrations and all those sort of other meaningful things that you hold on to for the rest of your life. And I think that, you know, you don't get that unless there's been, you know, unless you're aware and you start to live in a place. Do you make those kind of connections.
[00:27:47 - 00:28:00] Ilana: And store them long enough and hang on to them? Yeah, it's how distressing it would be for people to then have to need a high level of care, move away from all those memories and then their attachment further goes from it.
[00:28:00 - 00:31:02] Simon: Yes, that's right. And you know, that's where that's, that's high care. And it's sad and it's unfortunate but I've seen some fairly incredible things that have happened. I don't personally like the terminology, a memory support unit, msu. I don't particularly like it but it's a common acronym that's used to describe high care dementia. And people who know me will know this little story that I'm about to share with you. A colleague of mine back a couple of years ago, we were working in the same practice and her name's Nikki. Nikki, if you're listening. Hello. And we were doing some work for a non for profit aged care and Nicky couldn't find short term care for her daughter. And so her daughter came with us to this visit. We went to this MSU and it was, it's sad, you know, people, you know what happens with, you know, longer term sort of dementia is their, their Eyes can move back into their skull and they're not, they're not, they're not foregrounded. Their consciousness, their consciousness is not in the foreground. It's in a different kind of space, if you like, usually backwards, not forward, right? And so we're in, we're in this memory support unit and there's a bunch of older people and they're sitting around for all intensive purposes. You go, this is awful. And Nikki's daughter's with us, okay? And the next thing is this old, very old lady starts seeing Itsy Bitsy Spider, right? And she's doing the hand movement and it was miraculous, it was phenomenal to see within a very short period of time. This lady who was living back in her space, in behind her eyes, you know, she's dwelling in that space, come forward and actually have the words and to be able to engage with this little child in this little song. And she was smiling and this kid was smiling and it was just one of the most gorgeous things I've ever seen. That's so beautiful, you know, and so they're not, they're there. And it's about finding things to bring them into the there. And music does it, reminiscence does it. In terms of events, people can do it, smell can do it, engaging with the environment can do it. And why aren't all these things mandated as being like, you know, you know, necessary? You know, there should be no discussion as to why you can't have access to these things.
[00:31:02 - 00:31:02] Ilana: Human rights.
[00:31:02 - 00:31:45] Simon: Human rights, absolutely. And human rights is huge. You know, there's a number of people who really take that on. Kate Swaffer from, you know, from South Australia is a huge advocate for, you know, human rights within this arena. And they get, they get sort of pushed around, unfortunately. And I think that that's one of the hopes that we have out of the Royal Commission and some of the other housing and accommodation alternatives that are being discussed and involved, you know, deal with that. But that lady, Itsy Bitsy Spider, you know, do you think that we drove back to, you know, it was on the edge of Melbourne. Do you think we drove back to Melbourne talking about the architecture? I don't think so, no.
[00:31:46 - 00:31:47] Ilana: Oh, wow.
[00:31:47 - 00:32:01] Simon: You know, and that, that's, that's kind of profound and, you know, and that's just an example. I mean, it's a huge driver when you can actually, you know, get close to being able to elicit that.
[00:32:01 - 00:32:13] Ilana: I'm interested in this idea of co locating services and programs and community amenities, community infrastructure, and even kindergartens. How can that work with a care villa?
[00:32:14 - 00:33:40] Simon: Well, we're doing that well, strangely enough, in Mildura. Big shout out to Mildura. Beautiful place, highly recommend everyone go up there. It is actually a great. It's a great regional city and we currently have, in planning, a cluster community. So the housing prototype that we've developed for Heathcote is not the same as the one to which we developed for Mildura. Different climate, different shadows and so forth. The economy around the idea is similar. We work up a similar shell than we do a bespoke interior. Right. So the interior options are, you know, stroke, dementia, ocular degeneration, obesity. Yeah. And so there's an interior, there's a sort of. The interior is tailored to deal with those sort of things. So what we're doing in Mildura, opposite the Generations Early Learning Centre and opposite Chaffey Aged Care, some land that's been gifted to us and we're putting a cluster of six next to that, which has a secret garden in the center and it has a living lab, kind of, you know, study villa off to the side, and there's universities involved and. And we're sort of building up that model that's in for town planning at the moment.
[00:33:40 - 00:33:42] Ilana: Oh, that's amazing. Congratulations.
[00:33:42 - 00:33:42] Simon: Yeah, thanks.
[00:33:42 - 00:33:47] Ilana: And hopefully an excellent data set to help advocate up to government as a result.
[00:33:47 - 00:33:54] Simon: Well, thank you. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. Data sets are incredible and the AI a lot of people get really worried about.
[00:33:54 - 00:33:56] Ilana: Yeah, yeah. Tell me more.
[00:33:56 - 00:35:07] Simon: Yeah, this is. This isn't sort of chat GPT, it's. This is artificial intelligence. So, for example, it monitors the air, it monitors the, you know, falls. Obviously that's all relatively generic, but there's extensions to that which are, you know, particularly air outside, you know, so smoke alarm if there's grass fires on the way, there's artificial intelligence capability. So if there's a photograph on the wall, you know, if I'm living in one of these villas and I'm living with dementia, but, you know, I want to call you, I'm going to have a photograph of you on the wall and I touch you and what it does, it makes a telephone call. The artificial intelligence has a live capacity to translate language. So if you've got a carer who doesn't have English as a first language, you can do on the fly translation in terms of, you know, one language to another. So that sort of opens up, you know, opportunities in terms of, you know, workplace employment diversity. And they're just some of the examples, apart from heart rate, wet, dry, those Sort of things.
[00:35:08 - 00:35:09] Ilana: That's amazing.
[00:35:09 - 00:35:23] Simon: Yeah. So the data sets are important within that arena because the more evidence, the more we have in terms of predictions presenting back to, back to government and.
[00:35:23 - 00:35:32] Ilana: Also just speaks, you can then evidence the data of how people are thriving in those environments. That post occupancy evaluation piece is also really important.
[00:35:33 - 00:36:01] Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. But the other thing that a lot of people don't think about is also how long it takes for people to mend. So, you know, if you've had someone who's had a fall and you've got more measurement on that, then you're able to predict what's needed for the that period of time in a more comprehensive manner than just going, oh, they've had a fall, they need these services. You know, there's an answer to it, or at least there's a sort of a period of time. So the more information that goes into.
[00:36:01 - 00:36:03] Ilana: That, it's more tailored to the person.
[00:36:03 - 00:36:07] Simon: Yeah. And workplace and the type of services that they might need in the home.
[00:36:08 - 00:36:17] Ilana: Fantastic. You also mentioned air monitoring internally, externally. How important is clean air becoming now in aged care?
[00:36:19 - 00:36:25] Simon: Well, I think anyone who's been into an old style aged care facility would go, you know, it needs a bit of work here.
[00:36:27 - 00:36:30] Ilana: So naturally ventilated, the old style ones, they're pretty stinky.
[00:36:31 - 00:38:16] Simon: Well, yeah, toast and urine is a, you know, is a particular smell that happens in some of them. Look, clean air is, I'll say it, thank you. Code for bringing it to, you know, mainstream understanding. Airflow, great. Clean air, great. Natural air. Great. Open a window, get some good air coming through. Wonderful. People who live in the countryside know this and you know, I know plenty of older folk in the country who still, every day will do it every day open up the doors and windows of their house just to sort of vent it out. Whether it's got to do with the wood stove or whether it's got to do with the open fire, it's just a matter of what they do. People in the city a little bit different. Good clean air, you know, a higher reading of carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide is one of the measures for predicting a higher opportunity to pick up Covid. So understanding what is, you know, in the composite, what we're breathing in is not only an extension of well being in the sense that we don't want to have chemicals in what we breathe, just like we don't want chemicals in the water that we drink. Having that understanding, I think is really important. And there's nothing. Well, it's A real thing I don't like is seeing people who are detached from their environment because the heating has turned up too high and they're just falling asleep. It's a form of restraint, in my opinion. When you have older people in stale areas in places of care who are passed out because there's not enough oxygen, the teething's turned up too much.
[00:38:16 - 00:38:18] Ilana: People get sleepy when the CO2 is too high.
[00:38:20 - 00:38:36] Simon: That's right. They're not engaged, you know, they're not. I just don't think that it's nice. I don't think that, you know, nice is too polite. I just think it's, you know, it drives me nuts when I see that. I don't, you know, it's cruel and it's awful, in my opinion.
[00:38:36 - 00:39:00] Ilana: And care providers also have a responsibility to prevent infection under their care. And there's numbers and numbers of protocols against hospital acquired infections. And it hasn't quite found its way into legislation yet of airborne, airborne prevention in less acute settings like, like aged care.
[00:39:01 - 00:39:19] Simon: Well, I mean, it's certainly under the building code of the 9C. Doesn't sort of really on, on the way in which we now resonate around the issue, you know, doesn't sort of, you know, certainly tackle those issues on the same sort of degree to which, you know, we expect now.
[00:39:20 - 00:39:45] Ilana: I'm really optimistic though. I'm really hopeful about the future. At least all the major hospitals, government hospitals I'm working on at the moment, they're all 100% outside air, high air change rate, fresh air is coming in. We're getting there. Like we installed sewers as a society, we clean the water, we drink, we're going to get there with air. Is that, is that your feeling as well as the popularity also growing?
[00:39:46 - 00:40:23] Simon: Well, I mean, residential aged care, due to the scale of those buildings and certainly in the regional setting, not within the metro setting where you end up with really some significantly big buildings that are consolidated, there is a culture of opening windows. And so I'd like to see that happen. I don't like the reliance upon mechanical ventilation personally, you know, and when there's opportunities to tap into other means of providing that, whether it's geothermal or the like, we should definitely seize it.
[00:40:23 - 00:40:55] Ilana: You know, heat pump, heat pump, air exchange. Yeah, you can get a continuous flow of outside air that's even available residentially, as I'm starting to see around now. Thank you for that insight and I think it's important conversations to continue having and as professionals in the built environment space, as architects where sometimes we get early access to that knowledge, early access to that information that's always really important to keep sharing. I wanted to ask, what's respite tourism?
[00:40:58 - 00:43:46] Simon: Well, it's something in Australia that we don't do too well. And if you Google respite tourism, you might find a picture of a suburban house with an over dimensioned ramp out the front that doesn't look very pretty. That's the conventional, you know, mainstream way of thinking of respite tourism in Australia, at least according to Google, much more refined in Spain, much more refined in Geneva and France. And the whole idea is tailored accommodation that acknowledges the carer and also acknowledges the person in receipt of care. And it came about through workshops that we're having at the Heathcote Dementia alliance regarding our prototype out there, known as Costa Fieldhouse. And it's an idea that you can go and stay in a place knowing that it's been tailored to something, to a care requirement, a need. So, for example, you can travel with your loved one who might be living with dementia or obesity or post stroke or whatever, and stay for a period of time in a care cabin that's tailored for that need and it be complemented by home care. Locally. Home care travels with the individual. So for example, you can come into the Heathcote region and your needs of the person who's in receipt of care is then complemented by access to the Heathcote hospital, for example. So both people can have a holiday or a break. He or she is the carer can go and have a game at local golf knowing that their loved one who's in receipt of care is still having that continuum on board so they can still have a holiday. And so if you do a search for, you know, DDA compliant holiday houses or things like that, you'll come across a whole range of different definitions of that. And there's nothing worse than sort of, you know, thinking that you're going to have a holiday with a loved one and then you can't get into the building. So if you're able to complement the regional economy because there's a uptake in a shift of the thinking paradigm, then that's one of the benefits. It's another way of introducing an income stream to a farm where they may have had a care villa for Uncle Freddy, who has subsequently died. He's passed on, but they've still got this asset which is tailored. Why not do something with it?
[00:43:46 - 00:43:47] Ilana: Airbnb.
[00:43:48 - 00:44:12] Simon: Exactly. Well, we, we were calling it Care bnb and that was our kind of, you know, that's been our kind of working kind of strategy around that. And there'll be some respite tourism which will eventually become what our care villa is at the Heathcote Hospital. That will eventually become a respite tourism pod. Pardon me. And also we're making allowance for that in Mildura.
[00:44:12 - 00:44:35] Ilana: Those are much more specific but also much more dignified form of accessibility where people can find that this need for, or meet the need that they have in order to continue living, for want of a better word, a normal life that they're otherwise excluded from. That really gives me pause just, just the thought that actually people can't do that.
[00:44:35 - 00:45:17] Simon: Well, that's right. There's a fantastic day facility out in towards the Yarra Valley and they take their visitors that come for day programs for dementia out to the Yarra Valley, into the vineyards. Vineyards are great because they're a low frequency. Low frequency environments are very good for calming. You know, it's not like the neon lights of Chinatown, you know, which are intense. They're high frequency. Low frequency has a positive impact of bringing people into a calm state. Right now, why should it be just the sort of, you know, 20 or 30 somethings in love who have the opportunity to come stay in a nice little pot on a vineyard.
[00:45:17 - 00:45:19] Ilana: Lots of people love wine.
[00:45:19 - 00:45:41] Simon: That's right. True. And yeah, so here's an opportunity to kind of extend that as well. Like, you know. Yeah, yeah. So it's the respite too. That's where it comes from. And I've had the good fortune of running that as a design brief from one of the design studios at rmit. And you know, the students responded really well to it.
[00:45:41 - 00:46:31] Ilana: So getting away from the bland and into the beautiful as almost again a human right. Beauty is a human right. Yeah. I did want to ask, how do you motivate young people, you know, undergraduate students, even 20 somethings, to take an interest in this topic where they may have not had the life experience or not everyone by that point in their life has necessarily been touched by someone that needs a higher level of care or not. Something most undergrads think about. How do you get them into being interested in this work and to then ballot for a design studio because they have choice, they have a lot of options. RMIT has a really robust program. It's up to like 20 something studios a semester, isn't it? That up for grabs?
[00:46:31 - 00:49:31] Simon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, how can I say it? Look, the type of the, the word that's used for the, the way in which you design the curriculum is often referred to as the pedagogy. I think that's how you say it, the pedagogy. And so the structure that I try to implement is to. To be a little bit instructional up front in terms of exercises and normalise, introduce language, introduce the language around these things, normalise them, and then after midway, move into a conversational style of education. So you're discussing it. One thing's for sure, students love to own their work. So if you're able to teach them around some of these complex issues, but get them to own the solution or what they're proposing as a solution to a way of life and to engage with meaning, then I have found that that's a really great way for them to sort of move from being told how to do something to thinking about how they might do it. And the outcome of that is engagement with the studio and loyalty to the program. And for example, I mean, last semester I ran a studio which was looking at the First Nations Men's Healing center. And we went out to country, out to, you know, out past Mildura, because that's where the site was. And so we engage with place, we engage with story, but then we run through a whole series of different narrative themes, which is all about dealing with coming to terms with continuous occupation. That term, continuous occupation of the issue and that idea of continuous occupation for our first nations brothers and sisters is also similar to anyone continuously occupying a need for care because it doesn't go away. And so, you know, I'm fascinated by the outcomes of what that can be. And I'm also really interested to see how students deal with issues such as, you know, wandering. Wandering as a result of cognitive decline versus wandering as being part of a cultural expression. And how would you design for that? And that's a fascinating design problem which you don't get in most other sectors. So, yeah, I enjoy the teaching. It enables me to remain active in thinking and I get as much out of it as the students.
[00:49:33 - 00:49:34] Ilana: Keeps you inspired and engaged.
[00:49:35 - 00:49:59] Simon: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so I'm running. Running a very similar program this. This semester. It's the first time in. And this will show you how old I am in 22 years. Since, you know, I've been sessionally educating at RMIT for 22 years or thereabouts. It's the first time I'm running a curriculum which is similar to the last semester. I normally do something completely different, but last semester was great.
[00:50:01 - 00:50:29] Ilana: Very worthy continued line of inquiry. Yeah, I think so for round two on that. That's Excellent. What have been some of the really surprising moments or unexpected discoveries, either from your academic research or from the research you've done with Heathcote Dementia alliance or on some projects. If you had some outcome from your work in this space that has really surprised you?
[00:50:32 - 00:51:20] Simon: The things that surprise me are people's willingness to engage with the issue when they can, and the other thing is people's willingness to share very private and personal care information when you're asking them, what's your experience? I think the volunteer base in Australia is amazing. There's a lot of innovation that happens out of people's willingness to give up time. And that's really something that we do not account for enough. You know, we greatly accept it, whether it's in the CFA or whether it's in aged care or whether it's in scouts or guides at a local flight footy club.
[00:51:20 - 00:51:21] Ilana: This radio station.
[00:51:21 - 00:52:36] Simon: Yeah. You know, and. And all of that has value. And so it's that social export, it's that social economy, the human capital, where it gets kind of exciting. And, you know, my friend Peter McLean, he does these fantastic things where he sort of models networks and things like that, and he sort of, you know, talks about moving away from there being silos into platforms of innovation. And I really like that way of thinking. If we're able to facilitate platforms for people to innovate, whether it's in food or nutrition, whether it's the model of care, whether it's in this space here tonight, in terms of podcasting, getting stories out that make our community richer, fantastic. They're platforms of innovation. And so, you know, within my experience, I've seen social innovation ideas come up where there has been radio stations in aged care, I've seen breweries start, I've seen, you know, a whole new food line happen, book style of book clubs and all sorts of different sort of, you know, crossovers of expertise and knowledge.
[00:52:36 - 00:52:41] Ilana: Sharing and people being able to continue their passion even though they require high level of care.
[00:52:41 - 00:52:42] Simon: Yeah, that's right.
[00:52:42 - 00:52:54] Ilana: They keep that personhood, that character. So I think anyone who's come close to working with volunteers even knows how motivated people are in local communities. So there's just like non stop.
[00:52:54 - 00:52:56] Simon: Indeed, non stop.
[00:52:56 - 00:52:57] Ilana: Go, go, go, go, go.
[00:52:57 - 00:52:57] Simon: Yes.
[00:52:58 - 00:53:06] Ilana: And that's if it fuels many societies in a way, exactly as you said, that it's not accounted for.
[00:53:06 - 00:53:48] Simon: Yeah, well, look, our project in Mildura, you know, we were very lucky that there's a thing called Dinner under the Vines, which is hosted by Stefano Tapira, who's The well known chef in Mildura, he said, I will donate the proceeds of this annual event to our cluster opportunity in Mildura. And so the Heathcote Dementia alliance, we all pack up our cars and we all go up there and we, you know, went on plates and contribute through volunteering and you know, we raised $40,000 that night and that goes towards doing something.
[00:53:49 - 00:53:55] Ilana: Yeah. Huge congratulations on your effort so far and we wish you every success in it going forward.
[00:53:55 - 00:53:55] Simon: Thank you.
[00:53:55 - 00:54:01] Ilana: Because it's tremendous change that can be affected in tremendous benefit that's brought to people.
[00:54:02 - 00:54:09] Simon: Yeah, that's our drivers and certainly it's on one part of it. It's one part of many parts. Big shout out to a big crew.
[00:54:10 - 00:54:36] Ilana: Just a couple of weeks ago it was mentioned on this show that everything in Australia requires a precedent and you need to do something to be able to do something. Much of the government procurement process is to blame for that as well. But hopefully a work with Heathcote and these pilot programs, these prototypes can be rolled out nationally and be adapted as well to each climate, to each country, to each orientation.
[00:54:37 - 00:54:50] Simon: Yes. Yep, that's a fantastic dream and that's what we're trying to do. And sort of the interiors are then can be picked up by social enterprise and the knowledge expands, continues out.
[00:54:52 - 00:55:10] Ilana: I did want to ask about the interiors in that what maybe perhaps from a dementia safe perspective, what specifically are some of the key things that you look for that make a dementia safe environment also successful and help people thrive internally?
[00:55:10 - 00:55:40] Simon: Yeah, yeah, sure. Look, I'd say that because there's not just one form of dementia, there's a whole range, there's not one shoe that fits all. One thing that is common across decline is people's understanding of legibility. So if a room has a purpose, it has that purpose. So if you've got spatial legibility in your home, then that's a good way forward to assist people living longer as they age in place.
[00:55:40 - 00:55:44] Ilana: Does that mean like open plan doesn't really work because it's too much in one area?
[00:55:44 - 00:56:05] Simon: It can. But what more's the point you is functional areas being true to their function. So conf. You know, dining rooms that suddenly have a workplace not really good. You know, it's that type of spatial and narrative legibility through the home is a. Is a good thing.
[00:56:05 - 00:56:08] Ilana: A kitchen that looks like a kitchen, a bathroom that looks like.
[00:56:08 - 00:56:55] Simon: Then you can drill down and you can look at the sort of appliances and make sure that certain appliances, you know, gas obviously is a problem. You know those induction cooktops are good. You know, instead of avoiding having too many labels through the home, if you're able to have clear inserts into some of the door leaves on your cupboards so that the clothes can be read in behind, those sort of simple little things can make a huge difference to someone feeling as though they're in control of those smaller elements. And that can help mitigate people's frustrations because they're, you know, they're living with their own frustrations, you know, so, you know, if you enable that, they're able to flourish in their own sort of micro decisions. So those sort of things are good.
[00:56:56 - 00:57:12] Ilana: And both the interior and the external envelope, the actual fabric of the building support that they hold. They hold space for those moments, hold space for the frustrations, for the care needs, for the privacy.
[00:57:12 - 00:58:21] Simon: And I think, you know, you raise a good point there because, you know, earlier I mentioned low frequency imagery being good for calming an individual. It's the same thing with sound. You know, people would be more on edge if there's a lot of background noise so that if you can acoustically treat something so that quieter, good, got the right light level. Because we've got to remember that as we age, our capacity to read, not only read, but also deal with contrast and color values depreciates. So, you know, typically the lux level has to be bumped up significantly. Older people feel temperature a lot more than younger people, obviously. And even though, you know, both you and I are fans of open, you know, fresh air coming through, we have to be mindful that our elder brothers and sisters will need extra clothing and comfort, you know, layers to mitigate that. But nonetheless, the fresh air is really good. And so, you know, acoustics and sound air all do play that sort of.
[00:58:21 - 00:59:11] Ilana: You know, these key things, fundamental, simple things, not actually that expensive to get right, are finally starting to get some attention slowly, slowly, people learning more about why it's important. And even I'm seeing acoustic modulating earplugs constantly through my targeted advertising across social media. Platforms that shall not be named are popping in and they serve different functions. So you can use it for partying, you can use them for regulating sound. But this is being marketed to everyone, not just people with sensory needs or people on the autism spectrum or people living with other sensitivities that they may need support for or have some sort of shame with being pumped out everywhere.
[00:59:11 - 00:59:46] Simon: Yeah, but the augmentation of care is developing at a rapid rate. Or not. And that's where the innovation is occurring. Our city's already innovated we already have dots at the intersection for people who are site challenged to understand that there's an intersection. We already have flashing lights. Our city, our urban environments, we've got signs, they're already augmented. But the integration of dynamic technology into that is pretty exciting. I mean, my mother in law has hearing aids and she can happily listen to the radio.
[00:59:47 - 00:59:49] Ilana: You know, it all taps in, it's.
[00:59:49 - 01:00:50] Simon: All Bluetooth, it's fantastic, you know, and so, you know, that's, that's, you know, you know, that's, that's our thing that's, you know, really interesting about where we're going as a species, where we're augmenting technology to make people, enable people to perhaps flourish in a way that they've never been able to before. We don't know what the full capacity of someone is who's been sight challenged in birth or through hearing. They may have a completely fascinating, you know, particular nuance about the neurology that enables them to do things. And I think that technologies are a way under the right type of governance, obviously, and regulation, and regulation to make that happen. And, you know, we're living longer. The longevity care sector is something that, you know, I'm vested in. I think that it's a really interesting architectural space to try to work in.
[01:00:50 - 01:01:05] Ilana: It certainly is. All care typologies, I think, become the real test of good architecture. And can you make those spaces exciting? This is a good, a good segue in your point of future innovation into my last question, which is what gives you hope?
[01:01:07 - 01:01:36] Simon: What gives me hope? Look, I'm a big fan of being curious and when curiosity is rewarded with opportunity, that gives me hope. I think that if I can say that in the students or I can see that by someone in the, you know, in the community being curious about an opp something and they're then given the opportunity, I, I think that's hopeful.
[01:01:36 - 01:01:44] Ilana: Yeah, that's wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us tonight, Simon. Absolute pleasure and all the very, very, all the very best with this work.
[01:01:44 - 01:01:45] Simon: Great, thank you.
[01:01:50 - 01:01:52] Ilana: Thanks for joining me for another evening.
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housing sustainability advocacy heritage

10 | August 09, 2023

Chris Hill, Deputy Mayor Kingston City Council on advocacy & better housing

Deputy Mayor Cr. Chris Hill discovered his passion for community advocacy when chairing "Save The Edgy" and later "Kingston Save Our Streets" and this ultimately led him to run for Kingston City Council in 2020. Having been a resident at the UK's first major zero-carbon housing development BedZED, Chris is passionate about Environmentally Sustainable Design and the need for more social and affordable housing, and knows through his own experience that the benefits of creating more sustainable communities go well beyond the energy savings.

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Chris Hill, Deputy Mayor Kingston City Council on advocacy & better housing
[00:00:03- 00:00:20] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
[00:00:32 - 00:03:35] Ilana: I'm Ilana Razbash and this is Radio Architecture. Hello from beautiful Bunurong country. We are coming to you from the ancient Karrum Karrum swamplands on unceded Kulin Nation land. Always was and always will be Aboriginal land. We're having a couple of technical difficulties at the moment, so very sorry that our live broadcast has been delayed this evening and we are back online live now to you, which is excellent. And we're also sounding a bit better tonight, a bit different because we've got new microphones. We've got. Which I'm super happy about, super excited. And a huge thank you to all the sponsors and supporters of the station, to Kingston City Council as well, for really supporting our work here at Radio Carrum. And a massive shout out to all the volunteers on Radiocaram whose hard work and effort and grant writing has made this all possible and has given all us broadcasters a much better sound. So super stoked and stoked that we're back live online broadcasting to you all across the world. So without further ado and no more delays this evening, it's my great pleasure to introduce tonight's conversation partner, Kingston City Council's Deputy Mayor, Councillor Chris Hill. Chris is a local dad who grew up in Melbourne Speyside suburbs and after a long stint living in the UK and Europe, he moved to the city of Kingston 18 years ago with his Danish wife and two daughters. Chris discovered his passion for community advocacy when chairing Save the Edgy and later Kingston Save Our Streets and this ultimately led him to run for Council in 2020. Prior to being elected, Chris worked in the exhibition industry for more than two decades, managing trade and consumer events across a range of diverse industries including the World Skatemasters and the Melbourne, Sydney, Perth and Brisbane home shows. Having been a resident at UK's first major carbon zero housing development, Bedz, Chris is passionate about environmentally sustainable design and the need for more social and affordable housing. He knows through his own experience that the benefits of creating more sustainable communities go well beyond the energy savings. Aside from his work on council and spending quality time with his family, Chris is a fourth generation Saints tragic who loves all things outdoors, especially trips down the coast with his surfing mates. Welcome, Councillor Chris Hill. So glad to have you on.
[00:03:36 - 00:03:39] Chris: Thanks very much, Alana. It's great that we got there in.
[00:03:39 - 00:03:49] Ilana: The END we got there a little hiccup this evening, but we're on, we're alive. And I think we'll run probably till about maybe quarter past eight this evening and then we'll get off the airwaves.
[00:03:49 - 00:03:53] Chris: Just a shame. You probably had the least tech savvy counselor here in front of you this evening.
[00:03:53 - 00:04:04] Ilana: No, an absolute pleasure to have you on. Look, let's jump into the first question and what I really like to ask everyone on this show when they come on is what's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:04:05 - 00:04:08] Chris: I'm going to skip between a couple if you don't mind.
[00:04:08 - 00:04:09] Ilana: By all means, please.
[00:04:09 - 00:06:05] Chris: So, and the sort of, just the reason I was thinking about this and my parents had us. I'm one of three boys, I'm the youngest and when I was born we were living in housing commission flats in what was then called Moorabbin and nowadays it's Hampton east. So it's the, the flats that you'll see along Bluff Road there in Hampton East. So that's where I was, well, living very briefly when I was first born. But then we moved to. The way the housing commission worked is that people would put their names down a list and then I think it was pretty much like a lottery and they would draw your name and depending on where your name came out, you were allocated to a particular estate somewhere, anywhere throughout Melbourne. And it just so happened that we ended up on the Pines in Frankston, so and I lived there till I was 6 years old. So I have, you know, pretty distinct memories of growing up there and, and that was great. And you know, I think back and it maybe is the start of my, or maybe part of the reason why I have this great appreciation for social affordable housing because my parents were the beneficiaries of, you know, being able to bring us up in a house where they might not have otherwise been able to afford to. But then I'm thinking like the first time I really remember a building or a house actually really connecting with one with a building or a house that is a mate of mine when I was probably about 13 moved to this. All I can say it's just like a really cool mid century house in Frankston south and it was one of those classic mid century houses that was on a sloping block. So it was single level at the level that you walked in, but then it kind of dropped down the hill so it sort of went down a split level, so went down half a level.
[00:06:05 - 00:06:06] Ilana: Classic mid century.
[00:06:06 - 00:06:39] Chris: Yeah, and it was incredible. You know, we lived In a nice enough house and you know, it had all the things you needed but I don't remember actually feeling anything like being in a building. But I just would walk in and it was light and bright and was just a happy place to be. And you know, I can now look back on it and think of architecturally the sort of features that that house had that I probably didn't really appreciate at the time. But you know, it's, you know, the floor to ceiling windows and the north and north aspect and there's things that.
[00:06:39 - 00:06:40] Ilana: Create a feeling around the space.
[00:06:41 - 00:07:02] Chris: Yeah, yeah. You know, nowadays, you know, real estate agents will forever go on about light, bright and spacious and all of that but you know, the mid century architects really knew what they were doing when they created those homes. And yeah, this is just a great example of one. And yeah, probably, you know, without knowing it, it sort of set me on a little bit of a journey maybe.
[00:07:02 - 00:07:13] Ilana: Absolutely. And maybe also your journey of conservation because we have so much mid century modern in Melbourne, across the city of Kingston, a lot in the city of Bayside.
[00:07:13 - 00:07:14] Chris: Yeah.
[00:07:14 - 00:07:22] Ilana: To. And many of which has already been sold off and redeveloped and others groups are fighting, fighting to save.
[00:07:22 - 00:07:23] Chris: Yeah.
[00:07:23 - 00:07:32] Ilana: And you have your own experience of fighting to save a building close to your height. You chaired Save the Edgy. Yeah, I did the Edge, the Edgewater Hotel.
[00:07:32 - 00:07:32] Chris: Yeah.
[00:07:33 - 00:07:40] Ilana: Which is pretty remarkable, beautiful building in this classical Italian esque area. Italianate style.
[00:07:40 - 00:07:41] Chris: Yeah.
[00:07:41 - 00:07:47] Ilana: Some commentators have called it a bit more Spanish but it's perhaps those details on it.
[00:07:47 - 00:07:47] Chris: Yeah.
[00:07:47 - 00:07:49] Ilana: That capture people's imagination.
[00:07:50 - 00:08:40] Chris: It's a really important building but it's important for its fabric, you know, the, the way it looks. But it's also important for the function that it serves as well. You know, the fact that it was open in the late 1880s. Um, you know, so for. Geez. I think it amounted to, you know, maybe 130 years thereabouts functioning as a pub. You know, weddings, parties, all sorts of events. And you know, this was the thing when I was chairing Save the Edgy, so many people made contact with me and other members of the committee just to share their own personal story and their own personal connection to the building. So you know, it just goes to show that a building can be much more than just bricks and mortar. The connection that people have is real.
[00:08:40 - 00:08:41] Ilana: Absolutely.
[00:08:41 - 00:08:56] Chris: And you know, when a building is publicly accessible in the way that a pub is. Yeah. The way that people connect and just the vast number of people who actually connect with that building, that's the joy.
[00:08:56 - 00:09:02] Ilana: Of public Work and public buildings and those that have a civic presence is that they become universal for everyone.
[00:09:02 - 00:09:03] Chris: Yeah.
[00:09:03 - 00:09:04] Ilana: Anyone can enter it.
[00:09:04 - 00:09:04] Chris: Yeah.
[00:09:04 - 00:09:10] Ilana: If it's designed right, if it is safe and inclusive and accessible, then it's a place everyone can come.
[00:09:10 - 00:09:10] Chris: Yeah.
[00:09:10 - 00:09:14] Ilana: What made you fall in love with the edgy? The Edgewater Hotel?
[00:09:14 - 00:10:09] Chris: Look, if I go back to my very earliest memories, it was the first times I remember going to the pub. I might well have gone before then, but the first times I remember going to the pub, I was sort of maybe about 19 or 20, and there was a bit of a pub crawl that would happen along Beach Road. So you had the Mentone Hotel, a bit further up the road, the Bowie. There was the Sandy. But the. The pub crawl never seemed to, for some reason, so much take in the Sandy. You had the Red Bluff and then further up you had the Hampton as well. But these were all period hotels that were along Beach Road, so. But Mentone was, at that point in time anyway, kind of different because it was, you know, largely a live music venue. And so I saw some great bands at the time, bands like Hunters and Collectors and the Sunny Boys. You know, that would have been, at a guess, around about, you know, 87, 88.
[00:10:10 - 00:10:16] Ilana: Wow. And I still remember the Wednesday nights. The Wednesday nights, the edgy were really big for uni students.
[00:10:16 - 00:10:34] Chris: They were. And everyone. Yeah, that younger generation tells me, you know, similarly, like, we had a connection. Our generation had a connection to the pub, which is ongoing because I was still going to the pub right to the days it was closing. But I know younger people had had that connection with the Wednesday nights.
[00:10:34 - 00:10:38] Ilana: That last night at the Edgy party, people lined up at 4pm Yeah, I was trying.
[00:10:39 - 00:10:40] Chris: I was. I was inside.
[00:10:40 - 00:10:41] Ilana: So you were in there?
[00:10:41 - 00:11:01] Chris: Oh, well, I wasn't. I wasn't at the. In the disco, but I was. I was in the pub with a mate and. And then I stood out on the road and Clark Martin, you know, gave a speech and basically it was a call to arms for local people who were going to stand up and do what they could to fight to preserve the hotel.
[00:11:01 - 00:11:03] Ilana: And you helped get it listed on the Heritage register.
[00:11:04 - 00:11:46] Chris: Yeah. So it all sort of came about. We. We had a meeting. So we had that meeting on the last Wednesday and the following Monday, a community meeting was. Was called at the Mentone Bowling Club. A bunch of people turned up. I remember my wife saying to me as I was leaving the house, you know, I was busy. My daughters would have been, I think, 11 and 15 at the time, and my Wife said to me as I was leaving, you know, for Christ's sakes, don't put your hand up and take on any. Any roles, you know. And when I came home and she sort of said, how'd it go? I had to fess up and say that it went well, but I'm chair of the new, newly formed Save the Edgy Committee.
[00:11:46 - 00:11:47] Ilana: That's excellent.
[00:11:49 - 00:11:59] Chris: Which I never even could have anticipated at the time, would be an ongoing sort of role that I'd sort of be responsible for for the next four years.
[00:11:59 - 00:12:02] Ilana: And advocacy shoes you'd really step into.
[00:12:02 - 00:12:58] Chris: Yeah, and it was, you know, like, it's a big responsibility. So many people have such a connection with these sorts of buildings and to chair a committee whose role is to try and, you know, protect the hotel. But it was multifaceted, what we were trying to achieve at the pub. So, yeah, it's a big responsibility that wasn't lost on us and, you know, had a great bunch of people and we worked really hard and yeah, we got it on the Heritage Register. I do have to sort of mention too, that it was with the support of the owner of the hotel, because had of the owner not been supportive, we might have gotten a very different outcome. Also, the local member at the time was a guy called Murray Thompson, who was the local member for Sandringham for decades, I seem to remember. But even the then planning minister was Matthew Guy. Everybody kind of came together with Kingston Council as well and, you know, between.
[00:12:58 - 00:13:08] Ilana: It was a bipartisan effort. Yeah, I was looking up at the old statements, the old press releases, the old details of it, and everybody rallied.
[00:13:08 - 00:14:26] Chris: Yeah. Yep. And, you know, the likes of Tim Richardson, you know, Dan and Morty. Alec was really, really supportive, as was Mark Dreyfus also. So just really, it was bipartisan, just everybody wanted to save the Mantine Hotel. We had a big, big group on our Facebook page which was, I think, you know, in excess of 12, 000 people at the time. Wow. So, yeah, it was. It was a big community movement. And yeah, you know, like we. The first thing that we did was it was really interesting, just going back one step. Clark Martin, who's now a counselor at City of Bayside, but he'd sort of been on a few fight. Well, he'd sort of been part of a few fights to save some pubs and unsuccessfully. And one thing he was really bullish about when we first started was that we just have to have really clear objectives and there can't be too many. Like, we've got to keep it Simple. And so we. We, right at the start, set out our objectives as being to, you know, protect the heritage of the hotel, to fight inappropriate development on the site, and then to try and deliver a publicly accessible bar within the building at some point in future. So that kept us really on the straight and narrow. So that's all we were really.
[00:14:26 - 00:14:28] Ilana: It's so important to define the problem.
[00:14:28 - 00:14:28] Chris: Yeah.
[00:14:28 - 00:14:36] Ilana: And define the mission you need to charge for. Especially when there's. There's so much, sometimes divergent energy.
[00:14:36 - 00:14:58] Chris: Yeah. And totally. And, you know, 12,000 people gave us a huge voice. But it also meant that there were lots and lots of different opinions within that group as well, so. And, you know, we always had to sort of check back and say, okay, we could do that, but how does that get to help us to where we're going? We've only got three boxes we're trying to tick here.
[00:14:58 - 00:14:59] Ilana: Absolutely.
[00:14:59 - 00:15:01] Chris: How does it help us tick one of those boxes?
[00:15:01 - 00:15:37] Ilana: On this show before, we've talked about the importance of understanding that progress and movement and common direction needs to happen, regardless of whether everyone necessarily agrees 100% with the outcome. This might be a really great moment to also mention that, as always, listeners, you can text into the studio that the number is 0493-21-3831. If you have any questions for Councillor Hill tonight, I'm sure he'll be more than happy to answer them all. What were some of the challenges of running such a long campaign as well?
[00:15:38 - 00:15:47] Chris: Well, probably the length of the campaign. I don't think any of us ever sort of imagined our wildest dreams that we, you know, it well.
[00:15:48 - 00:15:50] Ilana: It's a long fight through the Heritage System.
[00:15:50 - 00:16:32] Chris: Yeah. The last piece of the puzzle, which was, you know, an agreement that we made in a. In a VCAT compulsory conference, was 2018. I think it was from memory. Yeah, I think it would have been 2018, you know, at that point, you know, it was nearly four years had passed at, you know, from. From woe to go, and so trying to keep people motivated, which meant that you needed downtime. You know, we couldn't. We couldn't work at 100 full strength for that entire period. So we had to have. Accept that sometimes things just went flat and went slow and we just had to, you know, go with the peaks and troughs and the ebbs and flows of.
[00:16:33 - 00:16:34] Ilana: That's a really important point.
[00:16:34 - 00:16:35] Chris: Yeah.
[00:16:35 - 00:16:37] Ilana: That rest is radical.
[00:16:37 - 00:16:37] Chris: Yeah.
[00:16:37 - 00:16:47] Ilana: Really, sometimes. And that things all look like they're charging ahead. But pacing yourself in any long project is really important.
[00:16:47 - 00:16:48] Chris: Yeah.
[00:16:48 - 00:16:52] Ilana: And thank you so much for sharing that and saying that, because I think more people need to hear that.
[00:16:52 - 00:16:52] Chris: Yeah.
[00:16:52 - 00:16:59] Ilana: You don't just clap your hands and everything magically happens. No, certainly not with architecture, not with buildings, not with planning.
[00:16:59 - 00:17:16] Chris: And I've had people contact me who are either part of a community group or wanting to start a community group. And they sort of are interested to hear my experiences and any advice I can give them. And I certainly learned a lot through Save the Edgy.
[00:17:16 - 00:17:17] Ilana: And what's your top lesson?
[00:17:18 - 00:18:32] Chris: Look, I think we probably touched on the two top ones, you know, right now because for one, these fights rarely are anywhere near as brief as what you hope and maybe imagine they will be. They often do go on for much, much longer. So what do you need to do to stay the distance? But I think really that first one that Clark shared with us around have really clear direction as to what it is that you're trying to achieve and the importance of that and talking about what some of the difficulties were, what some of the key difficulties might have been, would have been, you know, all the divergent voices that were within our group, even within the committee. You know, we had people on, like really quite ideologically opposed to one another. And yet we're all came together. We were all aligned. Yeah, exactly. But it did mean that at times people would have had far, you know, different ways of dealing with a particular problem, for instance. But you know, what we were able to do because we had this real simple core message of as to where we were trying to head to, we could always just bring it back to saying, great. How does that help us?
[00:18:32 - 00:18:34] Ilana: You know, Absolutely.
[00:18:34 - 00:18:39] Chris: With the heritage, the over development of the site or delivering a pub back.
[00:18:39 - 00:19:04] Ilana: To the people and straight to the point as well. I'm always interested in the outcomes and really the magic that sits at that moment of the common ground. Like what does everyone have in common in this moment? And everyone may have different views and different ideas and different affiliations, but what's the one thing that can bring us together? And 12,000 people got together about the Edgewater Hotel, which was really amazing.
[00:19:04 - 00:19:05] Chris: Yeah.
[00:19:05 - 00:19:15] Ilana: And there's even like amongst all the stories, I've read that there were a number of rumors. Did you. Did you hear some of the historical.
[00:19:15 - 00:19:25] Chris: Rumors around the tunnels? Yes, that sort of thing. I've got to be honest, I still am undecided as to whether they're real. Yeah.
[00:19:25 - 00:20:38] Ilana: So these are some of the rumors for our listeners that have come up when doing a bit more reading into the edgy. There was a tunnel from the beach to under. From the beach cliffs under Beach Road to a dungeon below the hotel and supposedly was used for nefarious activities, including smuggling contraband liquor and other pub goods. And the historian writing for the Kingston page at the time says that's impossible. Another one was that the Kilbreda Bridgeline nuns once had the Mentone Hotel as their headquarters. And there's all these salacious details and nuances about what could have possibly taken place, but it's true that the nuns did live in the hotel in 1904, but only for a week because they had just moved out of their previous tenancy in Echuca, and their new premises at the Coffee palace, where the order was going to move into, was still being settled. So the nun story is probably not true either. But we love a tale. What about Black Monday? Apparently, January 31, 1938, the pub ran out of beer.
[00:20:38 - 00:20:40] Chris: I know that. That one did horrify me too.
[00:20:40 - 00:20:42] Ilana: Is it verified? I've.
[00:20:42 - 00:20:45] Chris: I've heard it enough places that I think there might be some truth to it.
[00:20:48 - 00:21:17] Ilana: We've just had a text come in. Hi, Chris and Alana. Chris, I believe the Blue Mountains Council mayor in New South Wales wrote to all residents owing Airbnb properties to consider putting them back on the rental market to increase supply. And 80 properties were bought back. Can Kingston council do the same? We need to increase rental supply. And this one has come from Claire in Edithvale. Okay, straight to housing.
[00:21:17 - 00:23:12] Chris: Yeah, great question. And we are sort of discussing the whole thing around Airbnbs and, you know, other short term let sort of platforms as well. At the moment we're like it, it sounds like I'm deflecting to some degree, but we're always subject to the greater powers that be, you know, which in most cases is sort of state law as opposed to our local law. But look, I think it's really relevant. It's not like we've actually looked into it within Kingston and the number of properties that we have, you know, on the short term let market in Kingston isn't as great as you might expect. There are other councils where it's a really significant problem, so. And no, no, probably great surprise that it's. It tends to be the, you know, kind of more the, you know, the weekend break destinations and those sorts of places where it's really genuinely putting a strain on the local rental market. And you know, when you hear about people who work within the, you know, within a particular municipality and they're living in a tent in a caravan park because There simply is no housing. You know, when like there's affordable housing that we can talk about, but when there is literally no housing supply, full stop, you know, these are the sorts of problems we are going to have to face. So even, you know, saying that whilst it maybe isn't such a big problem within Kingston right at the moment, it's not to say that we don't need to be really conscious of it and to, you know, plan for the future to make sure that these aren't sorts of issues that we need to really struggle with within Kingston. Because I'm a great believer that everyone deserves a roof over their head and a place to feel safe.
[00:23:12 - 00:23:15] Ilana: Absolutely. It's a human right really, isn't it?
[00:23:15 - 00:23:15] Chris: Yep.
[00:23:15 - 00:23:37] Ilana: Well, since we've been segued and this is live radio, people will love questions, keep sending them in. We've been segued onto housing. Tell me, what was it like living in a zero carbon development? Firstly, what does that mean really for what it mean to you and what, what does it mean for someone who's just a resident there? What was the day to day like?
[00:23:38 - 00:25:28] Chris: Look, I think the thing when you talk because it's easy to just sort of look at the fabric of the building and you know the, these houses where we, where I lived it was in the south of London basically on a, on the old road that would have taken you from the south of London to Gatwick Airport. Since then they built, you know, motorways and stuff, but that was the road that, that we lived just off and there was a Greyfield site and the way that the European Union funding, grant funding worked was, you know, they had sort of boxes to tick and you sort of accrue points and you know, the more points you accrued the more money that you could tap into from the European Union and a big one was because this was built on an old Greyfield site that helped them accrue more and more points and basically without that grant funding it just simply wouldn't have been viable to build the development of Bedz. So. But there was a group called Bioregional who had the, had the brains behind this new fandangled zero carbon community development. And then they part partnered with a, an architect called Bill Dunster Architects and then they did deals with a community trust called Peabody who brought in that social, affordable sort of element to the development as well. So it was just such a, you know, like so many great minds came together to make this vision a reality and I was just fortunate enough to be one of the first Residents to actually move in there. Well, I say, I, my family and myself. Yeah, we. We bought outright our townhouse that we moved into. Right. When it first opened.
[00:25:28 - 00:25:30] Ilana: How many townhouses were there?
[00:25:30 - 00:25:32] Chris: There were a hundred dwellings in total.
[00:25:32 - 00:25:36] Ilana: And were they mixed scale? So there was a mixture of bedroom numbers.
[00:25:36 - 00:25:54] Chris: Yeah. So there was studios. The studios were pretty generous by sort of London standards anyway. But then there were. Yeah, studios. One, two, three and four bedroom. All within this, this development. We had electric car charging points. This is 20 years ago.
[00:25:54 - 00:25:55] Ilana: Wow.
[00:25:55 - 00:26:11] Chris: Yeah, we had fiber optic to our houses so that it made it easier for people to work from home again, you know, you think we had sun spaces. So within our townhouses, we actually had a sun space at the front of the dwelling. So you walked.
[00:26:11 - 00:26:13] Ilana: What's a sunspacer? Not actually heard that before.
[00:26:13 - 00:26:19] Chris: So basically you walked into what was a sun space which was double glazing.
[00:26:19 - 00:26:20] Ilana: Oh, like a sunroom.
[00:26:20 - 00:26:21] Chris: Sunroom. Sort of like a sunroom.
[00:26:21 - 00:26:23] Ilana: Like a conservatory, sort of.
[00:26:23 - 00:26:42] Chris: Yeah, yeah. So it was double double vaulted ceiling. And then you walked through another set of double glazed doors into your home. So in effect, you had quadruple glazing between the outside world and the inside. And that space sort of acted a bit like an airlock into the home and then on the rear side. So that was.
[00:26:42 - 00:26:43] Ilana: I love airlocks.
[00:26:43 - 00:28:00] Chris: Yeah. So that was the south. That was the southern facing aspect. And then the northern spacing facing aspect was triple glazed. So their southern facing is a bit like our northern facing. You know, that's what captures all the sun. It was super insulated. You know, it had green roofs, but we had these wind cows. People often refer to it as Teletubby land because they had these colorful wind cows on the roof that drew fresh air in and pulled the stale air out. But they were heat exchanges so that you weren't losing terribly much heat in those air exchanges and getting fresh air. And getting fresh air in. So I think, you know, we would go away for a weekend when we were living at Bed Z and leave the place locked up. And you'd think like, if an old, older property here, you'd probably lock the place up, come back and it was. It would smell musty in spite of this place being super insulated and like real minimal leakage of the building. When you came back, it just smelled like. So I. I laid a. An engineered timber floor in the place. When we came back after a weekend away, it just smelled like freshly cut timber.
[00:28:01 - 00:28:01] Ilana: Wow.
[00:28:01 - 00:28:03] Chris: So the quality of the air was incredible.
[00:28:03 - 00:28:06] Ilana: That's continuous supply Fresh air through a heat pump for you.
[00:28:06 - 00:28:19] Chris: Yeah, yeah. It was just really nice. We had a, so the, some of the glazing units actually incorporated solar panels in them as well. Like PV cells.
[00:28:20 - 00:28:22] Ilana: Integral photo voltaics.
[00:28:22 - 00:28:27] Chris: Yep. So again, I remind people this was 20 years ago. This, you know, it just makes you.
[00:28:27 - 00:28:31] Ilana: Realize we have all the tech now. We've got the tech, we've got, we've got everything we need to do.
[00:28:31 - 00:28:31] Chris: Yep.
[00:28:31 - 00:28:35] Ilana: And it's all possible. And just a quick question on Bedz. How about your power bills?
[00:28:36 - 00:28:38] Chris: They were hardly anything.
[00:28:38 - 00:28:39] Ilana: Zero.
[00:28:39 - 00:28:59] Chris: Well, I wouldn't say they were zero, but they were dramatically less than. So we were in a one bedroom flat that was in a converted Victorian school prior to moving to Bed Said. And I think they went, they dropped by like 60 or 70% even though the beds at home was twice the size of the flat where we'd come from.
[00:29:00 - 00:29:17] Ilana: There we go. Sometimes the sustainability argument isn't enough and the tech isn't cool enough. But I think when people look at the bottom line and, and consider that their bills could be near zero just from building better. Yep, it, it really sells. The phones are running hot. We've got more questions coming in.
[00:29:17 - 00:30:06] Chris: I, I firstly, I, I Sorry, just in finishing on Bedz 2, the, the one thing, the one point I wanted to make too, like they talk about it as a zero carbon community. So that's where I say it's, it's more than just the actual fabric of the building. It's about the, the community that you're creating as well and, and connection to place, connection to place, connection to each other. Like, you know, our girls were really young. In actual fact, my youngest daughter was actually the first bedside baby because there was a bit of a baby boom whilst we were living there, you know, with all the new families that moved there. But our youngest daughter was actually the first baby to be born at Bed Said or whilst we were living at Bed Said. But you know, just that, that connection to community that you don't necessarily get all, you know, it's not a given.
[00:30:06 - 00:30:09] Ilana: And, and it's designed, it's actually designed.
[00:30:09 - 00:30:23] Chris: It'S designed and we, we would just like go to the movies and there were any number of people like friends who lived within the development who would just put their hand up and say we can, we can babysit. You know, just practicalities like that.
[00:30:23 - 00:30:30] Ilana: It's lovely. There's everyday things. Yeah, those everyday things that make up 80% of your life at the end of the day.
[00:30:30 - 00:30:42] Chris: Yeah. And it makes you feel that Much more connected to not just the building that you live in, but the community that that building's part of and you know, obviously the people around you.
[00:30:42 - 00:31:28] Ilana: I think those stories also really important to talk about. If we advocate for these type of developments and this type of housing and those are the sort of ideas and the moments that we need to carry across to people. Yeah, because stories get the idea across, not so much the tech savings. I really want to ask this next question. Claire has continued messaging us. Thank you Claire for your first question. And again she's really keen to get this one through. It's. Would council consider houseboat options? They are immediate and safe, she says, and wouldn't be for everyone but a great and low cost option. Many European cities have river housing and Kingston has some great river ways and marinas.
[00:31:30 - 00:31:33] Chris: I'd have to take it on notice because I'd have to work out what the complexities.
[00:31:33 - 00:31:35] Ilana: But the details of the houseboat.
[00:31:35 - 00:32:49] Chris: Yeah, but I, I'm. There are so many ways of delivering housing, you know, like it doesn't just have to be in a traditional context. I've been doing consulting work for a company called Passive Place and Passive Places plan is to create again sustainable communities but using modular, demandable units that won't actually, you know, they won't look like the sort of hawkers you see in a, in a caravan park or that, that type of thing. But you know, really, you know, ultimately to the passive standard. But yeah, you know, really livable spaces that, you know, because often councils and government, we might have land that we might have a future purpose for but it may be that There is a 10 year window where that isn't able to be realized and to think that that land just sits there. We've got all these issues with affordable housing and to have sort of options that you could actually come in and satisfy that need for a period of time, you know, and you're not really losing anything because that land's not really serving a purpose right here and right now.
[00:32:49 - 00:33:10] Ilana: Absolutely. And you could use it for like crisis response housing or immediate housing because that sort of critical intervention or critical support housing for the first 20 something days, up to 90 days of taking someone off the street and helping rehabilitate them versus more long term housing or social housing and affordable. These are all very different types of housing.
[00:33:11 - 00:33:11] Chris: Exactly.
[00:33:12 - 00:33:37] Ilana: Which listeners may not be across. We've only just sort of started broaching into this topic on this program that they all serve very different functions. So perhaps Claire's houseboat idea could work for that Crisis response for 20 days, 21 days, up to a month, a few months to support people, to get that healthcare to move forward into more stable.
[00:33:37 - 00:33:58] Chris: And I. But I think too like people would be. Don't get me wrong, there is, you know, land is at a premium in Kingston. It very much is. And we know all too well. But by the same token, what's not usually taken into account with that equation is just land that has a future purpose, but we don't have a purpose for it in that shorter term.
[00:33:59 - 00:34:00] Ilana: And people with future potential.
[00:34:00 - 00:34:01] Chris: Yeah.
[00:34:01 - 00:34:02] Ilana: It's about giving homes to people.
[00:34:02 - 00:34:03] Chris: Yeah.
[00:34:03 - 00:34:08] Ilana: Who need to place the fundamental security to realize that future. Right.
[00:34:08 - 00:34:34] Chris: So I just think there's some really great opportunities that we haven't even dived into yet. And I'm certainly keen to look at that and have a conversation about what it is that we can do to think outside of the box. Because if we rely on just the kind of the conventional model of development, you know, that's been going on for a long time and we still have this problem, so what more can we do?
[00:34:34 - 00:35:02] Ilana: And we've been generating ideas on this for a really long time too, actually. I did a design studio at RMIT University many moons ago while I was still studying and Dr. Peter Brew was running a research project in parallel looking at this crisis housing. Right. Taking people straight off the street, short term, rehabilitating them as we need that. The frequency of an atmosphere, about 1 in 100. Imagine how often you see an ATM in the CBD.
[00:35:03 - 00:35:03] Chris: Yeah.
[00:35:03 - 00:35:42] Ilana: And the sort of architectural premise was that it needs to be another type of housing or another type of home. And he called these other homes. But it's the idea that it's a type of house we haven't even come up with yet. Yeah, absolutely important to continue that open minds and open thinking. I wanted to ask you recently joined a group tour through Nightingale, Nightingale Village up near Brunswick and Austin Maynard's Park Life Development, which we've also talked about on this program. Wanted to get your thoughts. What did you think of that apartment building?
[00:35:43 - 00:35:46] Chris: Look, for me, it was, it was quite familiar.
[00:35:46 - 00:35:47] Ilana: Like bed said.
[00:35:48 - 00:36:11] Chris: Yeah. And I spoke like I. Andrew Maynard, along with some other staff of theirs took the tour and I was speaking with Andrew and I was able to say, you know, look, a lot of this, you know, what you've built into these developments, because we went to Terrace House as well, and a lot of the aspects that they've sort of, they're.
[00:36:11 - 00:36:15] Ilana: Fundamental, they're integral, they're not up for discussion. No, they're in there.
[00:36:15 - 00:36:34] Chris: And look, it was. It was an interesting method. Methodology too. Like, if you have a look at Terrace House, they actually brought together the community, almost like a expression of interest type model. They brought people together and then together with the community, they actually designed, you know, what would become Terrace House.
[00:36:34 - 00:36:41] Ilana: That's under the Nightingale development model. They have this kind of early buyer input, early consultation piece.
[00:36:41 - 00:36:42] Chris: Yeah.
[00:36:42 - 00:36:52] Ilana: Where people sort of agree. Yep. We're happy to share a communal laundry. Yes. We want a rooftop courtyard. The buyers are all pretty much ready to go and then they develop it.
[00:36:52 - 00:37:10] Chris: Yep. And, you know, things that really, you know, really resonated with me as well is, you know, often with an. Especially the more contemporary apartment developments, you know, you go up a lift onto a level. It's more like a hotel in that, you know, you've got a straight corridor, you've got doors off to each side.
[00:37:10 - 00:37:12] Ilana: Hate those gun barrel corridors.
[00:37:12 - 00:37:30] Chris: And it was so different. Like, whether we talk Terrace House or Park Life, you know, there was these great spaces that I think are more akin to just a more conventional home as opposed to an apartment. Now. There were apartments, but there was this amenity.
[00:37:30 - 00:37:30] Ilana: There was a usability.
[00:37:31 - 00:37:43] Chris: There's a usability. And you could see how it would connect neighbor to neighbor as well in a more comfortable sort of environment, which I think is really, really important because you want to be at home with.
[00:37:43 - 00:37:50] Ilana: Your neighbors and they have all these communal spaces and function spaces that people can book out or use and come together across.
[00:37:51 - 00:38:44] Chris: And, you know, they've incorporated all the eco aspects as well. Because if you have a look at, you know, the natters rating, I think. I think Terrace House was around eight and a half stars from memory, and Park Life was over nine. You know, so that really, really exceptional. But probably a bit like bed said too. It's not done in a way that. All I could say is when you walk into those properties, they just feel nice, you know, that there's nothing about them that you think are kind of somewhat kooky, off the wall, restrictive. Yeah. You know, it's the. The architecture that they've applied and the way they've laid the apartments out and the, you know, the way they face the orientation of the apartments and all of those things. It just makes it feel like a beautiful place to live.
[00:38:44 - 00:38:47] Ilana: And that's what good design is and good design does.
[00:38:47 - 00:38:47] Chris: Yeah.
[00:38:47 - 00:38:49] Ilana: But everyone deserves that beauty.
[00:38:50 - 00:39:28] Chris: That's. Yeah, I couldn't agree less. So I could. Sorry, I couldn't agree more. It's. It's genuinely I think we've got to look at that because it's not, you know, like we would love to have apartments that have that boast all of the, you know, I guess the things that we saw at those developments when we did those tours. But as well, you know, of course, you know, we, we have so many developments being delivered throughout Kingston and you know, we're always really conscious of the fact of just trying to make sure that the amenity that's being delivered to the future residents is, you know, something that we, we aspire to.
[00:39:28 - 00:40:03] Ilana: So is that, do you think the city of Kingston may be looking to push to support this sort of development model? Because it's, it's quite different in a way that it's an architect led developer model. There's also more ethical developers in the market like neometro fieldwork architects have a branch that also does development under a similar model that not only tries to really deliver that high quality design outcome to the consumer and people that are purchasing, but also ensure that it is better building stock.
[00:40:03 - 00:40:04] Chris: Yeah.
[00:40:04 - 00:40:09] Ilana: So do you think there's a place where council can help support those developments coming in?
[00:40:09 - 00:41:13] Chris: Yeah, yeah. So look, you know, I guess I've got to start by saying at council we can't make developers do something that's outside of the code. But you know, but what we can do is we can encourage, you know, developers to come in and to speak with us and to let them know what's important to us as, as a council and, and hopefully we're reflective of the interests of our community when we do that as well. And, and it was just really interesting to have that conversation with, with, with Austin Maynard because I think, you know, our assumption is that they wouldn't have an interest in Kingston because you know, they primarily develop in these inner city sort of municipalities. But the funny thing, by meeting with them and by having, you know, further discussions with them, they actually thought that King, a middle ring municipality like Kingston wouldn't be interested in having a conversation with them.
[00:41:13 - 00:41:14] Ilana: You never know till you talk. Right.
[00:41:14 - 00:41:58] Chris: You never know. So you know, the good thing is we are, we are talking and you know, as I said, we do have council owned sites around Kingston and you know, some of those just simply wouldn't be appropriate for, for the sort of development that, that we're discussing. But saying that there are sites that are, you know, maybe even starting with, because as well, Austin Maynard did the development in Brighton as well. I think it was called Slate House from memory and that was a slightly smaller scale of what they did in Brunswick. And so we certainly got sites of the scale as to where they've delivered. Slate House in Brighton for instance.
[00:41:59 - 00:42:05] Ilana: Is council considering entering the development market as a community housing kind of supporter or provider?
[00:42:06 - 00:43:42] Chris: I don't know if I'd go that far. But like it's sort of interesting when you actually speak to. Because I think what the problem that we have is that we as a council and probably you know, developers and architects, we have our preconceived ideas as to what the, what the roadblocks are going to be and suddenly you have a conversation, you find out that it's completely different to what you expected. And so I know, you know it can be really simple in that we might have a council patch of land but there may be ways like do we even have to necessarily sell the land? You know, could we maintain the ownership of the land and have a lease type arrangement over the land, for instance? There's other, there's other ways of if it is selling the land but the blocker for them is to have to, you know, cough up that money right at the front end of the project. They know that they'll be able to balance the books in the fullness of time over let's say the lifespan of the developments maybe five years from conception to delivery to actually have to commit to that big financial outlay right at the start. These are the sorts of things that we might find through discussion are actually the big roadblocks. But that's the sort of thing that we maybe can assist with and that might be the difference between getting a really awesome market leading development to Kingston versus you know, it just simply not being able to happen because it's not financially viable.
[00:43:42 - 00:43:52] Ilana: Absolutely. And potentially maybe even supporting good design. Streamlining the process through planning. Yeah, as, as well as always an avenue, isn't it?
[00:43:52 - 00:44:33] Chris: A real, a really interesting sort of part of the conversation we had with Andrew Maynard when we were at Terrace House, I remember was that they had quite a bit of trouble getting it through council. That's that first development and ultimately you know, they, it, it took a lot of like it, I think it was a number of years of negotiation to get everything through when they built it. It really triggered other like minded architects and builders to be building similar things. And now what's been explained to us is that that sort of raised the bar up to, you know, it's pretty much the developments that you know, 8, 8, 8 star plus.
[00:44:33 - 00:44:35] Ilana: And it's elevated consumer expectations too.
[00:44:35 - 00:45:04] Chris: Well, well they said that it's sort of raised the bar to a point that it's actually no longer commercially viable to deliver anything less in that local area, you know, so it's just shifted. So that's where I say, you know, we have the actual, you know, the local building regs and you know, the planning schemes, et cetera, that we're working to. But sometimes there are other powers at play, you know, given that, you know, builders, developers are working within a commercial sort of constraint.
[00:45:04 - 00:45:21] Ilana: Yeah. But I think people shouldn't say that those in Kingston would not be keen because as I'm learning through doing this radio show, that we have such interesting people in the local area with such diverse backgrounds, such experience, such curiosity that you really don't know until you have a conversation.
[00:45:21 - 00:45:21] Chris: Yeah.
[00:45:21 - 00:45:38] Ilana: And to say that they somehow wouldn't want such an amazing place to live in, it's just kind of unfair. Yeah, just don't say that. People, like don't understand. Well, because that's what it is, right? It's like coded language for. They just don't get it. Yeah, people absolutely do get it. People at City of Kingston are amazing.
[00:45:38 - 00:45:58] Chris: Yeah. Well, if I have a look at where I lived in Bedzed, you know, that, that was middle ring, you know, almost outer ring, you know, South London suburb, like, you know, if you're talking about a, you know, really progressive development where they literally, you know, they were groundbreaking with, with some of the things they implemented into that development 20 years.
[00:45:58 - 00:46:00] Ilana: Ago too, for the time.
[00:46:00 - 00:46:11] Chris: 20 years ago. But you wouldn't think, you know, if you think of the equivalent sort of Melbourne suburb that you would build that. And yet it worked, you know, so, you know, I guess it's the old, you know, build it and they will come.
[00:46:11 - 00:46:21] Ilana: Yeah, exactly. Right. We've had one more question come in. This one's from Vince and Edith Vale says, do you know how many houses are empty in Kingston? I guess it means vacant.
[00:46:21 - 00:47:01] Chris: Vacant, unoccupied. Yeah, yeah, it's something that I'm kind of conscious of and I think some of my councilor colleagues are conscious of as well. Yeah. When we look at occupancy rates, it doesn't as much typically apply to houses per se. It often does apply, however, to sorts of properties that lend themselves more to the investor type market. I can only sort of look at some of the high rise apartment buildings that we've got. Some of them have been only recently built. But you know, when you see.
[00:47:03 - 00:47:04] Ilana: You.
[00:47:04 - 00:47:16] Chris: Know, apartment buildings with, you know, third, a third of the lights off at 8 o' clock at night for Instance, you know, it does make you sort of scratch your head and sort of wonder, what is the occupancy rate so.
[00:47:16 - 00:47:19] Ilana: Plaguing cities all over the world at the moment.
[00:47:19 - 00:48:13] Chris: Yeah. So we, you know, I've actually asked to look into, you know, what tools do we have at our disposal to try and encourage higher occupancy rates. It's not really straightforward and I believe, again, what we in effect have to do is, you know, try and advocate to the state to enforce those tools here. But it's something that I'm really aware of and I think, I guess my answer to it is to say it kind of comes down to the quality of, and the nature of the, of the developments that we're, that we're actually delivering. I would say if you went through Park Life, for instance, I can't remember, I think it was 60 odd dwellings from memory, something like that. But I would, I would assume that they've got basically 100% occupancy.
[00:48:13 - 00:48:19] Ilana: Oh, absolutely. I don't think you'd get away with rent to get out on Airbnb in that building. Yeah, everyone would know about it.
[00:48:19 - 00:48:36] Chris: Yeah. So. So this, I think it does come down to, you know, we might not have always the immediate tool to overcome a problem, but we can kind of help massage a solution by just like, really good decision making over time.
[00:48:37 - 00:49:13] Ilana: Absolutely. I was well on this topic of homelessness because there are homeless people in the city of Kingston. For a middle ring, it's actually quite surprising. Like, most people think homeless people are in the inner city or in the city itself. What kind of, what current council support services are available to help. To help deal with homelessness in our community or to support people experiencing homelessness at the moment? Or is that more of a state and family issue?
[00:49:14 - 00:50:24] Chris: Oh, look, I'd like to think that it's a, it's an all levels of government issue and we do have a responsibility at local level because these are our communities at the end of the day. And I think it's, you know, like, we want to have a heart and, you know, we want to be close to our community and, you know, if there's solutions that we can, you know, help make people's lives better, you know, I think it's really, you know, you know, a responsibility about us as a council to, to do that. We've got a. As a council, we actually have a lot of services in house where a lot of other councils have actually divested of certain services. We at Kingston have typically kept those services, you know, even when they, you know, it's sometimes easy just to, I guess, look at the numbers and say, well, it's just not cost effective for the council to provide that service any longer. But then you've actually got to look at the service and say, okay, but who is the best person to provide that service or who is the best organisation to provide that service?
[00:50:24 - 00:50:26] Ilana: Who's closest, who's on the ground first?
[00:50:27 - 00:51:30] Chris: And I think if the answer is, well, council, it may be that it's not the most cost effective way always to provide the service, but if we're the ones that are going to actually get the best outcome by providing the service. And so one example of that is we've got a fantastic access care team and I'm pretty sure they work out of the Brindisi street office in Mentone, but they work directly with people who are homeless throughout Kingston. And, you know, I've experienced firsthand them actually being able to achieve really great outcomes and often really quickly as well. Which is. Which is great. And then the other thing is, we've actually just in Clarinda taken on six of these transportable units and we're using that as, you know, accommodation, like Christ accommodation for homeless people as well. So there are things that we are proactively doing. It's not to say that we can't be doing more.
[00:51:30 - 00:51:36] Ilana: So that's really reassuring to hear. I don't think people often get to know that council is doing that.
[00:51:37 - 00:51:50] Chris: Yeah. And we are, as I say, we are somewhat unique. I wouldn't say that no other council is doing it, that wouldn't be true. But, you know, Kingston is quite unique in the level of service that we provide and I'm sure we're really proud.
[00:51:50 - 00:52:01] Ilana: Of that too, as I'm sure you appreciate as well that it's not just the immediate cost benefit of, of, of any of these activities, it's the overall social benefit.
[00:52:01 - 00:52:01] Chris: Yeah.
[00:52:01 - 00:52:08] Ilana: And how it reduces all your other civic maintenance expenditures and all these, all these other things that you have to do.
[00:52:08 - 00:52:32] Chris: Yeah. And that's where I say it's not as. Yeah, it's not as straightforward a calculation as to say, you know, what's the cost to council and, you know, could we provide this service more cheaply by, you know, getting a third party and that sort of thing? You know, it's. Sometimes that might be the right solution, but you've got to cut your cloth according to the problem. It just can't be a one size fits all approach.
[00:52:33 - 00:52:35] Ilana: Exactly. With compassion and empathy.
[00:52:35 - 00:52:36] Chris: Totally.
[00:52:36 - 00:53:04] Ilana: And I think many Listeners tonight are really reassured to note that their deputy mayor is passionate about housing and social and affordable housing and sustainability. So I'm sure that's comforting to a lot of listeners and constituents as well. And not just that you save the edgy. I'm mindful of the time and that we've had a few tech difficulties tonight, so we should. We've gone over already and we should start to wrap up. But the last question I want to ask you is, what gives you hope?
[00:53:07 - 00:55:23] Chris: Look, there's. There's actually, for one, I tend to be an optimistic person by nature anyway, you know, like, going back to save the edgy. I just, I knew what we were trying to do was in some ways ridiculous. And so many people have tried and failed and whatnot. But, you know, I, and the people around me, you know, with the committee would just always, you know, resolute and just, we're gonna, we're gonna do this, we're gonna achieve this. And, And I think you can achieve a lot more with that positive sort of mindset as well. I. I go, there are just some great people. You know, Kingston's doing some great work, but there are some great people. I sit on seca, which is the Southeast Council's Climate Change Alliance. They sort of feed into another body called casb, which is the Council alliance of Sustainable Building Built Environment. And, you know, you just see, you know, the really clever people and, you know, with, you know, just a great approach to solving these big, big problems. And look, there are other committees and groups that councils are aligned with as well that sort of sit outside of council. So I see all the work of these great people and I think we've got some really great minds, you know, sort of chipping away at all these big problems. And so that's great. The other thing is, too, I go. Unfortunate enough being a counselor, you go to a whole load of different events. But I love when we go to school events and you see the school kids and there's just so many great youth coming up through the system too. And it's actually notable too, if you actually have a look at recent census data, that it was the first time ever that the millennials sort of were equal. It's, you know, to the percentage point as the baby boomers, but coming up fast behind with the Gen Zs as well. So, you know, I just think that there's so much good being done by the young people in our society as well. And, you know, that that in itself gives me great hope for the future.
[00:55:25 - 00:55:28] Ilana: Thanks. So much for joining us on the program tonight, Chris.
[00:55:29 - 00:55:30] Chris: Thank you, Ilana.
[00:55:34 - 00:56:23] Ilana: Thanks for joining me for another evening of radio architecture with Alana Razbash. This live show was broadcast and recorded in the Radio Carrum Studio on Bunurong Country. You can replay the show wherever you get your podcastsThanks for joining, tuning in and supporting Community Radio. Take care.
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edithvale advocacy public space placemaking

11 | August 16, 2023

Edithvale Collective on placemaking & grassroots activism

Kirralee Ashworth-Collett and Michael Cummings of the Edithvale Collective. Established in 2017, the Edithvale Collective is a community group working to improve the Edithvale area.

Kirralee is a commercial photographer for interior designers, property developers and lifestyle brands. She has been a local resident of Edithvale for the past 13 years, and has been a member of the Edithvale Collective since it was founded in 2017. She has a passion for community connection and beautifying and caring for the spaces we live in. Michael is a former journalist and newspaper editor who now manages the communications and external relations for a large corporate in Melbourne. He has lived in Edithvale since emigrating from New Zealand in 2016, and has been involved with the Edithvale Collective since 2021.

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Edithvale Collective on placemaking & grassroots activism
[00:00:08- 00:00:34] Radio Carrum Sponsor Announcement
[00:00:48 - 00:02:35] Ilana: I'm Ilana Rasbash and this is Radio Architecture. Good evening from beautiful Bunurong country. I'm so lucky to be living, working, playing and broadcasting to you live on Radio Carrum from this ancient, wonderful place. Tonight's guests are from the Edith Vale Collective and I'm super excited to have them joining me in the studio tonight and especially grateful to that they've made the time to be here and all our listeners have made the time to tune in again this week to Radio Architecture with Ilana Rasbash. Because I'm sure everyone's champing at the bit to watch the soccer tonight and cheer on the Matildas, as we are too will join everyone in Australia, no doubt watching after this conversation. So welcome back again and welcome tonight to Kiralee Ashworth, Colette and Michael Cummings of the Edithvale Collective. Kira Lee is a commercial photographer for interior designers, property developers and lifestyle brands. She has been a local resident of Edith Vale for the past 13 years and a member of the Edith Vale Collective since it was founded in 2017. She has a passion for community connection and beautifying and caring for the spaces we live in. Michael Cummings is a former journalist and newspaper editor who now manages the communications and external relations for a large corporate in Melbourne. He has lived in Edith Vale since emigrating from New Zealand in 2016 and has been involved with the Edithdale Collective since 2021. Welcome to you both.
[00:02:35 - 00:02:36] Michael: Thank you for having us.
[00:02:36 - 00:02:37] Kirralee: Thanks for having us.
[00:02:37 - 00:02:38] Michael: This is a real treat.
[00:02:39 - 00:03:04] Ilana: It is for me too. I really like it. It's the highlight of my Wednesday. It's no longer a hump day thing. Wednesday's an exc night where I get to have really interesting conversations with people from all across our community. And it's great to have two faces. I mean, the listeners can't see you, but we've had your headshots up on Instagram. It's good to have some faces to the group that is the Edith Valk Collective.
[00:03:04 - 00:03:08] Michael: Yes. That shadowy group of faceless people working behind the scenes.
[00:03:08 - 00:03:09] Ilana: You've got a cool logo, though.
[00:03:09 - 00:03:11] Michael: We do. I'm not sure who designed it, actually.
[00:03:11 - 00:03:18] Kirralee: Yeah, it was a former member who doesn't live in Edith Valley anymore, but they were real key parts of designing that logo. Graphic designer. Yeah.
[00:03:19 - 00:03:27] Ilana: Good graphics and good design go a long way. Well, Kiralee, I'll ask you my first question. What's your earliest memory of a building or place?
[00:03:29 - 00:04:21] Kirralee: I'd probably say my family home, which my dad designed. And it was a really beautiful home with a long home that ran down the block and all the windows, lots of windows faced north and floor to ceiling windows that let in lots of light. It was quite a sectional house. But in the middle of the home, the heart of the home, was our family room and kitchen and dining. And there I had a little special area. It was a lime green plastic table and chairs where I made lots of things. Made a mess like a craft zone. Oh yeah. Cutting and pasting and sticking and constructing. And I suppose that's maybe where my creativeness started, I think, and my passion and what feels. Feels right to me.
[00:04:21 - 00:04:26] Ilana: Yeah, I love that. And how about you, Michael? What's your earliest memory of building a place?
[00:04:26 - 00:05:39] Michael: I think for me it might be the Helensville Rugby Club where I grew up in small town New Zealand. And it was still there. It's not a remarkable piece of architecture by any stretch of the imagination. It's just this large rectangular sort of hall. But in New Zealand in the 1980s and 1990s, it was the hub, you know, so Saturday was just full of kids running around, dads having a beer and mums catching up and all those sort of stereotypes and tropes that define that time. And so for me, it was just this place of absolute freedom. And it was surrounded by the Mackenzie Hills, which were these beautiful sort of sheep farms that rolled on for kilometers as far as the eye could see. It was just so idyllic. But for me that place is sort of etched in my brain and the smells of it too are really conjuring for me. And I was actually just coming up to the studio. There's a footy training going on outside and I got that smell of liniment and grass and it just took me there straight away. It was really quite remarkable. And so that's really my early memory of just that freedom of being on a Saturday and there's no rules or time to be back. Just running around and having the time of your life.
[00:05:40 - 00:05:49] Ilana: That's wonderful. What a nice moment. And as you told that story, I thought that's just like the Roy Daw Pavilion here in Carrum. That's an absolute hub for communal activity.
[00:05:49 - 00:05:57] Michael: Exactly. I think that the Architecture and design is slightly more advanced and commendable, but it's definitely similar, smells at least.
[00:05:58 - 00:06:04] Ilana: Lovely. So tell me about the Edith Val Collective. What are some of your core goals? What's your mission?
[00:06:07 - 00:07:31] Michael: Probably, I think the. The beauty of the collective is our sort of goals have been quite narrow and specific. We haven't tried to identify every problem or gripe in the community and jump on it. We've really been quite focused. I haven't been with the collective since the beginning. I've sort of been in the last two or three years. But what sort of appealed to me was that the focus was always on how do we revive the shopping strip. So how do we activate space and try and do what we can to bring more life, make it more attractive to retailers? And we've really quite doggedly focused on that. I think one of the goals that is adjacent to it and related is really about access to public space. And obviously those two are sort of inextricably linked, but we've really just kept our eye on the ball as much as we can. Because I think the risk or the temptation when you're a community group is you pick up on every gripe on the local Facebook page and let's pounce on that, and you're sort of chasing the tail a bit. And so we have been approached by people about other causes or issues, and we've been pretty disciplined in saying, look, that's not us. We don't want to be against every development or sort of be a NIMBY group. We're really just focused on that one cause. And I think that has helped us sort of forge a brand and identity that has kept us on the track.
[00:07:31 - 00:07:48] Ilana: Definitely. We discussed that this last week on this program. The idea of setting very specific goals and targeting that quite narrowly and often that's a. That's a bit of good common ground to bring people together. So how much interest is there in your group? How many members are involved?
[00:07:49 - 00:08:49] Kirralee: So currently there's seven members, and I'd say the wider community is also a member of the edithl Collective. The way they join in and give their helping hand whenever we ask for it, it's amazing. Who in the community have skills and professions that if you just say, hey, we need a little bit of help with this or that, they go, yeah, sure, we can do that, yeah. And even with our key members, we have so many different skills, it's really amazing. Jono and Jessie, they run the EDI Grocer, which is an amazing hub and heart in Editha the. They just think outside the box and really think about everything in a sustainable way. Sonia, she's amazing. She's a professor in economics and it can do amazing things with data and analysing things, which really works well with the council. Not just coming in on an emotional level, coming in on that real data kind of focused way.
[00:08:50 - 00:08:53] Ilana: Backing it up. Backing up all those points. Absolutely.
[00:08:53 - 00:09:04] Kirralee: Really backing up those points with doing surveys and speaking to people before and after we've done things to see how what we've activated and done has affected people. Yeah.
[00:09:06 - 00:09:47] Michael: I think one of the reasons the collective works is people sort of drop in and out. Sonia had a baby recently and so I just had to step away. And people go through those, you know, those ups and downs of life where they have a bit of time or they don't have as much time and we. We don't really have a hierarchy, we don't have regular meetings and a real strict structure. It's really quite organic and fluid. And I think that's why it sort of worked, is that people aren't sort of getting bogged in, oh, we've got to have a meeting on the first Tuesday of every month and can someone approve the minutes? It's really. We go through sort of bursts of activity and then there might be times when things are a bit quiet and that dipping in and out just makes it work for us.
[00:09:48 - 00:09:59] Kirralee: Yeah, it makes it that you don't have to put energy into things sometimes when that's just not where you're at in life, and then other times you've got bursts of energy and ideas happening and people come along with you at that point.
[00:10:00 - 00:10:03] Michael: A lot of us have young kids as well, so there's always a juggle. But.
[00:10:04 - 00:10:10] Kirralee: And I want to mention Ash as well, as a fabulous member, very organized can do.
[00:10:10 - 00:10:24] Michael: She's the heart and the soul and the sparkly life. You might see Ash occasionally down Edithale beach, running a silent distance or dressed in sequins at sunset, and she's just an absolute delight and a real energy and driving force of the collective.
[00:10:24 - 00:10:58] Kirralee: And Nat as well, who's a newer member, and she just knows lots of people in the community and also who to contact and counsel about certain things. And she just is one of those people who knows the right person. So I think we have. And of course, Michael and myself here. Michael has come in recently and worked on all the communications and he has a really calming way of settling things and thinking about things in a really strategic way. And, yeah, I think we're A real. We all come from different professions and lives and it kind of just really works in this really organic, lovely way.
[00:10:58 - 00:11:22] Ilana: That's fantastic. I'm definitely hearing it a lot from advocates that I have conversations with who say that pacing themselves and are quite earnest that the time that they have available for things, things actually fluctuates and that's human and that's normal and progress takes time and that it's slow. Congratulations on sustaining your group since 2017.
[00:11:23 - 00:12:26] Michael: Yeah, well, my first experience of the Collective, I wasn't involved with it, but it was when they activated the Beast in Reserve. I think the Collector was awarded a grant from Council around place making. And so there was this fantastic sort of community gathering in Beeson Reserve with activities and painted chairs and lots of data driven as well. So the Collective was really focused on how do we gather data on what people want. One of the things that can be a barrier when you go to speak to decision makers is sort of speaking in hunches or anecdotes. When you can go and say, well, look, we've actually spoken to community, we have hard and fast data that says this is a priority for them, or this thing that you're pursuing is not a priority, you just get a lot more cut through. And so I think the Collective's been really successful at building credibility and relationships with decision makers. We've been sort of annoying when we have to be, but generally really constructive. And that's borne fruit, I think, over time.
[00:12:27 - 00:12:31] Ilana: Tell me more about that project, Kirilli. You would have been involved in that one.
[00:12:31 - 00:13:11] Kirralee: Yeah, it was amazing. So it was run by CO Design and it was funded by the Myer foundation and Jono. I was getting a veggie box of Jono and Jessie at the time and another one of the veggie box recipients got some information about this program and we applied and we got in and then we just asked other people in the community and they came along to workshops in the city and they run facilitating how we would activate spaces for a short period of time and then show the council what happened. And hopefully that would mean change in the future.
[00:13:11 - 00:13:13] Ilana: Like a pilot project. Yeah.
[00:13:13 - 00:14:29] Kirralee: To try and test our ideas. So, yeah, we activated the park like Michael just said, and we also put out trader seating and made a mural and added some plants to the planner box. And we also had another big part that was really important to us was bringing the community together and getting to know your neighbors. So we had a really big open opening day. We had 200 people and it was raining and Everything. So we're really excited by that. And Ash organised mini events where there was yoga and storytelling and that sort of thing. So, yeah, that was the creation start. And I think none of us knew each other at the time. We were all just neighbours, like, slightly connected by Jono and JC's shop. But I think now I'd call everyone some of my closest friends, which is amazing. And it's just lovely to know that you might feel full in your heart by your amazing family and your friends and your work colleagues and maybe you have interests, but when you feel like a deep seeding in your community and relationships, that you're like, I could just ring them if there was an emergency and they'd be here at any moment. Or they're my support network in that really local level. And that really means a lot to me, to feel connected to my community.
[00:14:29 - 00:14:48] Ilana: That's really lovely. This is really a testament to the power of connection to place. That's what drives your passion as well, isn't it? I just want to ask quickly about the mural before I read a text we've had come in. Is that the Relax, you're in Edith Vale mural that was painted and now painted over for advertising?
[00:14:48 - 00:15:19] Kirralee: Yeah. So there was a really big, strong thing for us is in identity in Edithvale because it's a very small suburb, a very tight knit suburb, but people kind of just drive through or ride through a walk through and think it's kind of situated between Aspendale and Chelsea and some shops are named Aspendale this or that. Even in Edithvale. We really wanted people to know this is Edith Vale. So we said that was why it was relaxed. You're in Edith Fell now. So the idea was that we just put the mural up for a while as a bit of an activation.
[00:15:20 - 00:15:26] Michael: So, yeah, yes, it disappeared recently, which is disappointing.
[00:15:26 - 00:15:30] Ilana: Yeah, the community was quite upset about that. On the Facebook groups it was.
[00:15:30 - 00:16:24] Michael: And I guess we were sort of philosophical about it in that, you know, the landlord had given us permission to. To do the mural there, so we're grateful about that. And there was an understanding that when he wanted to go, he wanted it go. And I guess the thing that was perhaps a bit bemusing for us was it was just white for a long time. It was painted over. It was sort of indicated to us that there might be some advertising coming, but it never arrived. So there was a bit of confusion around what was going on. And then I think there's a real estate mural advertisement that's on there now and that real estate Company sort of gave an undertaking on Facebook that they would sort of donate the rest of the wall for a mural for the community. I haven't seen much more detail about that. Did sort of follow up with them to see if there's any more information. So you just have to quite literally watch this space.
[00:16:25 - 00:16:42] Ilana: I'd love to see some more street art. Go back up there. We've had a text come in from Jeff from Edithvale. It's great to see the collective gaining traction and being acknowledged. The community around Edith Vale has done a great job to coming together and showing the council how it should be done.
[00:16:42 - 00:19:01] Michael: Oh, that's very, very kind. I. I think picking up on Graeme's comment around our success with the council, I mean, it was a very long road. Lots of frustrations, lots of times where we kind of felt like we had to do everything. You know, we were doing someone else's job. But also the flip side of that was I think we were really gratified by the fact that if you stick at it, you can get results. And I think it's kind of like the key message from our organisation. What I sort of try to tell other people is that people underestimate how much influence they can have. People think that decisions cannot be influenced by small grassroots community organisations and we sort of live in proof that it can be. I think we went through a phase. We were kind of being pushed from pillar to post. You know, the council would say, talk to this organisation and they'd say, no, talk to the council. And then you get sent and you kind of would go on a bit of a wild goose chase. But we kind of realized that part of that was bureaucratic strategy. It wasn't. Wasn't coincidental. And I sort of felt like we did reach a tipping point where, you know, councils and people in positions of power sort of realized we weren't going away. And all of a sudden things fell into place and they felt like we were an organization they could deal with. So I suppose our massive project and key success has been securing funding for the upgrade of the shopping strip. That has always been our focus. And so when that money was allocated last year, $2.3 million was allocated to upgrade around 800 meters of the shopping strip with new pavers, seating, murals, street art, things like that. That was a real coup for us, but has also started our new process because that's an arduous thing to work through as well. So we're now working closely with the council as they work through concept designs, as they engage Traders in the community and we realize that we didn't actually reached the finish line, we just found another starting gun.
[00:19:01 - 00:19:22] Ilana: It's always like that. It really is. We've had even more text messages come in. The phone's absolutely running hot and it's probably a testament to how much the community appreciate your work and tenacity in this space. This one's from Saskia. She says, edith Vale is so lucky to have this community driven group to advocate for local interest. So impressive to see the impact they are having.
[00:19:23 - 00:19:24] Michael: Thank you, Saskia.
[00:19:24 - 00:19:35] Ilana: And another one's come through. This one's anonymous. It says, I saw in the newspaper the collective managed to secure. There we go. We've just discussed it. Secure the funding and finally improve the shopping strip. What a pack of legends.
[00:19:37 - 00:19:37] Michael: Thank you.
[00:19:37 - 00:19:52] Ilana: Thank you for all your text messages tonight and for those that haven't been able to find the number, I'll just read it out for you. It's 0493-21-3831. Please keep those messages coming and you still have bit over 10 minutes until the soccer starts. So.
[00:19:55 - 00:20:55] Kirralee: Yeah, we're going back to a bit of what Michael was talking about. I think it has been a really long road and at times we felt really frustrated because there was lots going on at Editha. We got a new life saving club, new fire station and a new train station and we were really hopeful at the time that the footpaths could be done at the same time. So we were bouncing a lot between council and trying to who was going to fund it. And I think we always really approach it in a positive way, in a polite way, in a professional way. And I think that's really fundamental to our group, that we want to go at things, respecting everyone who are the decision makers. And yeah, I think that's what we have with Kingston Council now. And I think when there was a change in councils Back in 2020, we had a lot of luck with Steve Stakos being mayor at the time and connecting us to the right general managers and yeah, I think that was a real big pivot point for us then.
[00:20:56 - 00:21:37] Michael: Yeah, and I think we're sort of fortunate. We've got to a point where the council see us as someone they can consult the community through. So, you know, the council is really focused on engaging with community and they see us as an avenue that we can tap in. Now we have a large social media audience and we have, I suppose, a brand, for want of a better term, that people know who we are, which is really gratifying. And quite humbling sometimes. Do you feel like saying to people, we're just sort of six or seven randos meeting on Zoom occasionally. You often meet people down at the pub who think the Edith, our collective, is like this, 150 strong, we're going.
[00:21:37 - 00:22:08] Kirralee: To do something with the $2.3 million and no, no, that's left for the professionals. We're just advocating for what we think the community needs and chatting to people and really taking from that data that we got and that maybe the council don't need to just come in and tell the community the way something's going to look, that maybe it comes from within and we communicate to the council what we feel is needed. And I think that's going to come out with the best end product, especially around the shops.
[00:22:09 - 00:22:20] Ilana: David from Edith Vale has just said, these guys have been brilliant for the Edith Vale community in bringing people together and improving the local environment and commercial strip. We are lucky to have them doing things on our behalf.
[00:22:21 - 00:22:53] Michael: No, thanks, David, that's very kind of you. And yeah, I guess we've always been on the view with the shopping strip that, you know, when the collective formed it was pretty bleak. I think anyone who's brave, brave enough to walk down the Edith shop, pretty crusty. And look, they're literally some people who say I, you know, who might have mobility issues or a bit older say I literally avoid the shops because I've had a fall and I don't feel safe. And that's just, you know, a completely.
[00:22:53 - 00:22:58] Ilana: Unacceptable state of affairs and completely unaccessible as well. There's nowhere near compliance.
[00:22:58 - 00:23:21] Michael: No, not at all. And you know, there was when I moved to Edith Val In 2016, there were just so many empty shops and it was looking all pretty moribund. There is, I think, been green shoots in the past, sort of 12 months, two years. The arrival of Bogurks. If you any craft beer lovers out there, if you haven't discovered Bogurks, you're missing out.
[00:23:21 - 00:23:24] Ilana: And we've had the owner, Jared on this program as well.
[00:23:25 - 00:23:25] Kirralee: Amazing.
[00:23:26 - 00:24:06] Michael: Remarkable, mate. And a really community minded guy who's been super supportive of us. But you've had businesses like that turn up. We had the ice cream shop turn up, which was a real coup. And so we're seeing some of the ones that have been empty have been renovated so landlords are looking to lease them. I think with any shopping strip you just need to reach that tipping point where you have two or three sort of core traders and then other people see an empty shop and Think this place is on the up. And what our hope is is that once we get, you know, the shopping strip sorted in terms of the paving and seating and the aesthetic that, you know, it'll be all downhill from there.
[00:24:06 - 00:24:20] Ilana: What does the future hold now that you've, you had this main coup? The main objective is achieved and underway in a sense like the, the process has commenced and design documentation, construction. That'll, that'll certainly takes a while.
[00:24:20 - 00:25:18] Michael: It's not, it's not quick. So I can give you a sort of brief update on where the shopping strip project is at now. So we met with the mayor and key staff from council about six weeks ago. They showed us sort of the look and feel designs that they've come up with, the kind of vibe that they're going for, which we were really supportive of, really beachy, bright colors, sort of like Lego style seating that we think sort of will just really pop. They've taken their sort of look and feel designs to traders, shown them to them, they've asked for feedback from traders on what are the priorities, what are things that are really important to you? Is it accessibility? Is it greenery? Is it? What are the things that are going to work for your business? They're taking that feedback away now and working on concept designs which they'll then go back and have one on one meetings with the traders on.
[00:25:18 - 00:25:21] Ilana: So who are the landscape architects involved in this one?
[00:25:21 - 00:25:22] Michael: I don't know actually.
[00:25:22 - 00:25:39] Kirralee: Yeah, they were talking about because it's not a really wide pavement where they can place trees and how high they can be. There was, I'm sure there's lots of thought, we put forward lots of ideas with parklets and all sorts of things about how we can get people connecting with the shops more and being there.
[00:25:39 - 00:27:11] Michael: I think the challenge for them is so with the awning, they sort of can't do large trees, but they do have sort of confined plantations planned which they've shown concepts to us. What they have discovered though through looking under the hood is anyone who's walked down the Nepean highway when it's raining will probably already know there's no storm water. So you have downpipes coming from businesses that are going absolutely nowhere. And that's part of the problem. You can see in, in the paving, it's sort of sunk in places. So council to their credit have stumped up an extra million dollars to sort the storm water. That is a good thing, but it's a double edged sword because that will likely lengthen the project. There's Lots of complexity and then how they stage the works along the shopping strip. There's not a lot of space under the footpath because of all the services that are already there. So that's going to be an extra challenge in terms of where they put the stormwater. There's all sorts of regulations around what they can discharge out into the ocean and things they can't do. So that's added some complexity to it. I think it will make the project more time consuming, but there will be once the that the consultation with traders is complete, community consultation process as well. But we're really not likely to see construction start until 2025, maybe even 2026.
[00:27:11 - 00:27:14] Ilana: When are we likely to see sneak peeks of the concept design?
[00:27:14 - 00:27:39] Michael: I think probably in the next two to three months. So that concept design hasn't been done yet. They've just done the look and feel sort of concept. But it will be going to the community late this year, early next year. So we'll be sort of key in letting the community know how they can get involved in that process. So if you're not following our Facebook page already, just keep an eye there.
[00:27:40 - 00:27:52] Ilana: You've broken my text message record on this show, guys, because Louisa has texted in and said, please pass on my thanks to the Edith Vale Collective for making our suburb beautiful. We love the colorful street signs they made.
[00:27:53 - 00:27:53] Michael: Thanks, Louisa.
[00:27:53 - 00:27:54] Kirralee: That's a fun project.
[00:27:54 - 00:27:55] Michael: AKA Mum.
[00:27:56 - 00:28:29] Ilana: And another message has come in from our previous anonymous texter and has said, I hope the council take responsibility for the lack of maintenance on this area and support the local traders doing this restoration of the strip. I think that's really a testament and it connects to the idea that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. And if you're passionate about where you are and you're passionate about your community and you're doing this hard place, making work, you're doing this research and you're coming to them and saying, guys, this is the fact, this is the evidence, this is where we're at, this is what we need. It's not safe, it's not fit for purpose, it's not accessible.
[00:28:29 - 00:30:36] Michael: And that's been a key insight for me is actually just how responsive council is to things like bad publicity. You know, we had many people in Edith Vale and beyond will remember the summer lounge that we had. We didn't want organiser, a guy named Rogan o' Shaughnessy, who had the crowd at our cafe set up a bar in the Beeson Reserve and it was a fantastic success and he worked quite closely. With council to get that over the line. It was sort of during COVID times when they're encouraging outdoor dining, things like that. And council staff were really supportive but got to the last hurdle and he got told no, which was really deflating for him. We sort of managed a bit of publicity in the local paper and once that appeared on the front page within 24 hours there was a bit of a backflip and it got the green light with a couple of conditions added. So for me that was really illustrative in the sense that council will respond quite quickly, Someone quite high up saw that article and phone calls were made. But it also told us a lot about how councils can work sometimes and we were lucky to have a follow up meeting with the CEO. And I raised that point with them and I said, look, this situation could have been avoided if there was a culture of yes. And what we find sometimes is there a culture of no. So the starting point is we can't do this or this can't be done. It's not. How could I sit down with this cafe owner and say, hey, look what you've applied for, the hours you've applied for, they're not going to fly for X, Y and Z reason, but if we change it here and there, we can get this over the line and get a success. And if you have that culture of yes, you don't need someone to go to the local paper and you don't have to have the embarrassment of having to tell your boss at the council that, oh yeah, that's on the front page of the local paper because we didn't have this sort of dexterity to think outside the box and come up with a solution.
[00:30:37 - 00:30:50] Ilana: Culture of yes. That's a real, that's a real testament and a really wonderful idea, I think, to hold and centre and think about for anyone running an organisation. Yeah.
[00:30:50 - 00:31:22] Michael: And I'm sympathetic to, I mean I work in the aged care sector and and council's similar in that when you work in sort of a highly regulated environment, it's easy to become real risk adverse. So it's not about how do we make this community better, how do we avoid breaching some law that's going to end up, you know, we're going to end up in court or, you know, how do we just keep the trains running on time without rocking the boat? The problem with that is it's really hard to get really significant transformational change in a community if you're just trying to avoid mistakes.
[00:31:22 - 00:31:56] Ilana: Oh, absolutely. We've discussed this on the program before, particularly in our public toilets episode conversation a number of weeks ago. The idea that you shouldn't just design for this lowest common denominator and think the worst of people because people will surprise you and people are amazing and they're generally inherently good. Will step up to the plate. Had another text come in from Gillian. Enjoying the chat. Wondering if reusing the materials that have been in place on the strip for a relatively short period, period may be part of the council plan.
[00:31:57 - 00:31:58] Michael: Good question.
[00:31:58 - 00:32:09] Kirralee: I think there was a new park bench put in, but I don't know what else was new. Everything's pretty old. They haven't been doing anything because they know that change is happening.
[00:32:09 - 00:32:24] Michael: So I don't. Yeah, you'd need a. I don't know if an archaeologist could find anything that's labelling you in there, but it's sort of brick pavers is what makes up and it's a bit of a patchwork because there's so many broken spots, asphalt.
[00:32:24 - 00:32:25] Kirralee: And concrete and brickwork.
[00:32:25 - 00:32:27] Michael: It's a mosaic of sorts.
[00:32:27 - 00:32:34] Ilana: If there's a local primary school that wants them from a craft project or something like that or that there's a reuse.
[00:32:35 - 00:32:37] Michael: We'll certainly feed that back to the council.
[00:32:37 - 00:33:14] Kirralee: But I totally agree. Using things that have place from the original place is often really nice. So I don't know if they're going. There's some blues, lots of blue stone round. Or all of the garden beds. I don't know if they're what they're reusing. We haven't seen the fine details of what's going on. So yeah, we look forward to it. But I know on the Life Saving Club when they redid that they use some of the old stained glass windows and you can see that the font is on all of the doors and everything is like been inspired from that. So it's a really beautiful connection Back to the old Life Saving club. So it's wonderful when things like that.
[00:33:14 - 00:33:21] Ilana: Happen because they hold the memories. They just seem like a material or an artifact, but it holds a memory.
[00:33:21 - 00:33:26] Michael: And a. Yeah, it's a wink and a nod and takes people back to a time and a feeling, doesn't it?
[00:33:26 - 00:33:27] Kirralee: Yeah.
[00:33:27 - 00:33:32] Ilana: So what do you love most about Edith Bell? What has probably started this passion for you?
[00:33:34 - 00:34:26] Kirralee: Definitely the people. And I think because it's such a small suburb, it has that kind of tight knit village feeling about it and I think if you do live in Edith Vale, you feel really proud to be an Edithalium. I think. I know I am. And Just that sense. I really feel like there's a sense that when you walk around the streets, people smile at you, nod at you, and really want to help each other out. Whenever things go up on Facebook pages, I just feel like the community wraps its arms around each other and yeah, I think that's a really beautiful thing. And then on a physical point, I mean, it's amazing. It's a wedge between the wetlands and the. The beach. I mean, that physical being able to get out there, enjoy both things within walking distance of your home. Like, how lucky are we having those natural.
[00:34:26 - 00:34:41] Michael: Two natural features on each side. Sort of wrapping the arms around the suburb is really. And it gives sort of a sense of containment too. I think you sort of know, or I think at least hope that the wetlands aren't going to be turned into a resi development or anything. You've got that. That natural.
[00:34:42 - 00:35:04] Ilana: Their rams are listed under the 1985 international convention. So for those interested about the wetlands or the Edith Bell or wetlands Discovery center, we have an episode on this program as well that we. That we did early in conversation with Jan Van Skyk. What do you wish most more people knew about Edith Vale?
[00:35:06 - 00:35:11] Kirralee: Sometimes when you're out and about just talking to people in Melbourne, just where.
[00:35:11 - 00:35:18] Michael: It is that we exist is probably. I think we have low goal. We wish more people knew we actually exist.
[00:35:18 - 00:35:35] Kirralee: I think that goes back to like wanting a real identity bite. And I think the identity. We're really hopeful that councils listened to us on that about the signage of the artwork or that was part of idea behind the mural that when you're in Edith Fel, you know you're in Edith Fell. Yeah. Really important to me.
[00:35:36 - 00:35:42] Ilana: And the colors connected back to those beach boxes that we have along the sand all the way through.
[00:35:42 - 00:35:55] Kirralee: So I think, yeah. And the colors they're talking about, I think more of a. Like a pastel kind of ice cream gelati. You know, sand and water sky. Those kind of emotive feelings, I think is what they're going for. So.
[00:35:55 - 00:35:58] Ilana: Yeah, okay, that's. That's a good hint. That's a good little scoop.
[00:35:59 - 00:36:00] Michael: Quite literally.
[00:36:00 - 00:36:09] Ilana: I wonder if there'll be any Edith Vale orange in the scheme. I've observed this particular bright and almost vermilion orange creeping up in buildings.
[00:36:09 - 00:36:35] Michael: It's the big challenge, I suppose, with any architecture is how do you create something that's sort of lively and bright but isn't going to be dated in about 18 months? So how do you sort of create something that's going to endure and not look tacky or old a few years from now. So I think the council looks like they're being a bit brave or a bit outside the box. Not something that's too plain and conservative. So we'll just see how.
[00:36:35 - 00:36:42] Kirralee: We did go to them with a lot of ideas. We just thought we're not urban designers but.
[00:36:43 - 00:36:44] Michael: But we googled this.
[00:36:44 - 00:36:57] Kirralee: We spent a long time Googling things that talked to us and I suppose that's about, you know, going back to community, feeling what it is that they want to see in their community, not just ticking boxes.
[00:36:57 - 00:37:17] Ilana: Yeah, that's really great. And you're. It's exactly the right thing to do really, when you have this opportunity to put that information forward. Because you don't have to be a built environment professional to have an aesthetic sensibility, to have a spatial feeling, to have a spatial understanding of what it is you want.
[00:37:18 - 00:37:18] Michael: Absolutely.
[00:37:18 - 00:37:35] Ilana: Had another text message come in. Hi Alana. Speaking of the wetlands, do people in Edith Vale have a strong awareness of which direction flood waters are likely to come from or how many properties are likely to be high risk by 2040? Cheers. Damian Williams, my first guest on the program.
[00:37:36 - 00:38:07] Michael: That's a good question. There was an interesting article in the Age a couple of weeks ago around suburbs most likely to be affected by sea level rise. Edefell wasn't at the top of the list, but it was near, near the top. So that's something that is going to be a long term, well, medium to long term challenge for places like Edithale is how do you design and develop and with the wetlands as well at the back end of the suburb, it's going to be incredibly challenging.
[00:38:07 - 00:38:09] Ilana: I'm sure a number of creeks and.
[00:38:09 - 00:38:21] Michael: Waterways feeding into that too and virtually no storm water. So. And it's not just the. The shopping strip that doesn't have storm water. Most of the. The streets don't. They're putting some in now along sort.
[00:38:21 - 00:38:27] Kirralee: Of Montrose Ave. Upgrades have been slowly happening over. Yeah. My whole time living there. Yeah.
[00:38:27 - 00:38:32] Ilana: Could this be perhaps a future focus for the collective once this shop is quite as sexy?
[00:38:32 - 00:38:38] Michael: Is it? We're the stormwater people but it's really important.
[00:38:38 - 00:38:49] Ilana: You know, I find that one big downpour and it reminds you. And they've been shocked by the warmth of this winter and the lack of snow this winter.
[00:38:50 - 00:40:15] Michael: Yeah, I think probably our minds are. While the project around the shopping ship upgrade is far from complete, our minds are really turning to activation of spaces. So one thing we're looking at now is Beeson Reserve for Those who don't know it is right by the Edithl Lifesaving Club. It's a really beautiful green space. It's not well used. So we are sort of starting to think about how do we advocate for a play space or playground in there. And there is. The council has council owned property in Lochiel Ave, which used to be the kinder, is that right? And that's being sold. So we're going to be sort of talking to council about how do we make sure that the funds from that sale actually stay in the local community. And by the way, we think this would be a really great way to use those funds because if you can activate that space down by the beach, you draw people in. You know, the beach is a draw card anyway. But the more you can get people down there, there are so many young parents in need of fail, so many 30 or 40 somethings that have kids that are looking to take them for a run around. You get those people pouring in there more and more, then they're stopping for a coffee at the crowded hour or sole press or picking up a pizza from Bogurk's. So that's probably where our minds are turning now, I think.
[00:40:15 - 00:40:49] Ilana: And you're stitching together those zones of public space too, because at the moment, with the shopping strip being so bad in Edith Vale, it's the beach that's the main public space. That's where people walk, where they meet each other. Once you upgrade the strip and you start building those tributaries, if you will, those linkings and stitches. We've had a text in come from Hamish from Adelaide. Thanks for tuning in again, Hamish. You've become a regular listener for us. That's wonderful. How do you push back against the culture of no within councils long term, how do you get that significant change you talked about?
[00:40:50 - 00:40:50] Michael: Thanks.
[00:40:51 - 00:41:01] Kirralee: So I think lots of chatting to people and just trying to do things in slightly different ways. If it doesn't work one way, then knock on a door and speak to another counsellor or another counsellor.
[00:41:01 - 00:41:03] Michael: You just don't take no for an.
[00:41:03 - 00:41:19] Kirralee: Answer and keep on going in, like a really professional, polite way. Like, I think there's a lot to be said about being a kind human being and I think people want to work and want to help people out who are actually nice people and not ripping down the doors of anger.
[00:41:19 - 00:42:42] Michael: I think, I think from a practical point of view too, having a following. So if you have, you know, if you've built a social media community, then you have leverage. So if you're able to you know, do some media outreach or, you know, do posts on social that get lots of engagement from a community that's aligned with your view. People in positions of power are responsive to them, they monitor those things really closely. I work in sort of corporate comms and pr so I monitor things like this and look at sentiment around different issues. And councils are very much in that space because, you know, they have to get re elected too. And one of the beauties for us is that we have a really small ward, the Sandpiper ward. And you know, you can only piss off so many people in a small space before re election becomes a challenge. So we've found that people are responsive to the real politic and I think for us it's about not having that as the first lever. Like we're not going in and kicking the door saying we're gonna go to the media or we're gonna embarrass you if you don't do X, Y and Z. It's really about engaging, positively, building momentum and then actually publicity or social media outreach just becomes a natural extension of what you're doing and people you're dealing with. They read that social media post, they're not surprised because you've told them in the room what your view is.
[00:42:44 - 00:43:02] Kirralee: And I think we also just put together some really amazing submissions that there was no way they could say no because we, oh, that's a problem. We'll sort that out. This is a problem. We'll close that door for you, we'll come up with a design for you. It was just like, let's push on and whatever you're saying is the problem, we'll tackle it.
[00:43:02 - 00:43:06] Ilana: So a testament also to the skills and talent of people in this area.
[00:43:07 - 00:43:07] Kirralee: Yes.
[00:43:08 - 00:43:18] Ilana: Whereas people think, oh, you live so far out from the cbd, you're disengaged and all sorts of pejoratives. That's not true. There's so much amazing talent.
[00:43:19 - 00:43:43] Kirralee: When we were making our pop up park, we just put calls out for people to come and people were painting and doing things and accountants were helping us out and you know, all sorts of people in the community were putting their hand up to say, I don't have time to be full time, be in the group constantly, but hey, I can come for an afternoon or an hour and give you a hand and I've got all these skills. It's really amazing when you ask people it is.
[00:43:43 - 00:44:27] Michael: When we were talking to council about the shopping strip upgrade, I remember really vividly we're putting together a presentation to give to council. And these are our ideas for the concept and what we need to think about. And Jono had some friend who was like a. A traffic engineering expert and he specialized in, like, pedestrian flows, so he was just. He just like, text his mate and his mate just does this awesome map of showing all the key pedestrian flows and why you should be having this there and that there. And, you know, like, you kind of see council going, who are these guys? I remember presenting to the slide deck. I had no idea what I was saying, I was just sort of repeating. But. But the point is that when you put the feelers out, there are lots of really talented people, people across a whole range of fields who are more than willing to say, hey, yeah, I can pitch in.
[00:44:28 - 00:44:50] Ilana: And as a result, at the end of all that, people look after the place. Yeah, they care for what they've done, they care for what they contributed to. The kids remember what projects their parents participated in, what projects they helped with, what signs they painted. That sign standing. It hasn't been graffiti, hasn't been toppled over, there's no pair of shoes tied by the laces hanging off it.
[00:44:50 - 00:45:22] Michael: And that's the beauty is, like, if this shopping strip upgrade goes well, and we hope it will, then people will feel like, this is something that we did, it wasn't foisted upon us by council. And, you know, people are less likely to complain if they feel like, well, you know, I had a hand in this, or I know the people. You know, it's not something that's just been plonked on us and then the council's walked away. You know, we've. We've driven it from the ground up, so to speak. So hopefully there's a bit more connection to it and ownership of it.
[00:45:22 - 00:45:48] Kirralee: And I think people notice really poor design or when it's not functioning right. This is no good access for all sorts of people. But when things are designed well and it's just, maybe you don't have that mindset of design, but you just flow through a space and you enjoy the space and you go and shop at the space, you spend longer there and it's like a snowballing effect of respecting the space then, because it's easy to.
[00:45:48 - 00:46:02] Ilana: Be in, I think a net positive improvement that continues. So you feel comfortable with the way the consultation's been going, that it's a genuine consultation. It's not been a. This is what we're doing. You haven't been told.
[00:46:02 - 00:46:42] Michael: Yeah, so far it's been really engaging. So at the Moment, it's sort of focused on the traders. The council, I think, justifiably sees the traders as the sort of primary stakeholder, but then we'll be consulting with the community after that. I think it's probably the question is how much money do they. You know, we've got $2.3 million allocated. Sounds like a lot, but it's not, unfortunately. So it'll just be a matter of, I think, how do you take what the community wants and what the traders want and actually deliver it within the envelope that you have?
[00:46:42 - 00:46:46] Kirralee: So, of course we'd like it done sooner, but we're in for the long road.
[00:46:46 - 00:46:48] Ilana: No time, cost, quality, pick two.
[00:46:49 - 00:47:02] Michael: We don't. We. We're under no illusions that it's going to be perfect. There'll be no doubt things that we probably would have liked to see done differently, but it's really about just engaging with it and making sure that all the views are on the table and.
[00:47:02 - 00:47:05] Kirralee: Then we can get the best out of where it is.
[00:47:05 - 00:47:11] Ilana: Yeah, I really look forward to seeing it and hopefully there's something brave and exciting in there as well.
[00:47:12 - 00:47:19] Kirralee: Yeah, let's hope there's some. Yeah, some kind of art element that's like really unique to Edith. I really hope for that.
[00:47:20 - 00:47:25] Ilana: Really bold public art would be excellent. I think Kisses have a big push towards that now.
[00:47:25 - 00:47:53] Michael: It's definitely part of what the council's presented to us so far. There's a strong public art, sort of street paving, artwork component to what they're talking about. And also, you know, that's something we can do ourselves as a community. So even if what's delivered by the council isn't exactly what we want, we will still be actively involved in looking for walls and commissioning murals and things like that. So it's something that we can really control, I think, as a community.
[00:47:54 - 00:47:57] Ilana: What about car parking? Has there been any conversations?
[00:47:57 - 00:48:12] Kirralee: Everyone brings up car parking, but I think it's one of these things that Edith Valley is what it is. It's not Aspendale where there's parking behind. It's not Chelsea where there's parking behind. But I don't know how you like add in more car parking. It's just one of those things that it. It is the way it is.
[00:48:12 - 00:48:49] Michael: I think the car parking ship really sailed with the new train station, so the only way to get additional car parking would have been to. To do Sky Rail there. And that hasn't happened. And I think there was maybe a net gain of two car parks when the new. Or a net Loss, I can't remember, but it was basically the same of what we've had before. But it's, it's a challenging one. A lot of traders would prefer there's more car parking, but I think if we can get the shopping strip right. We are a small suburb, you know, it is pretty accessible, so hopefully it's not, it's not a huge issue going forward.
[00:48:49 - 00:48:52] Ilana: Most people walk to the shop by foot. That's certainly my experience.
[00:48:53 - 00:49:31] Kirralee: Lots of bike park, proper bike parking and stuff that we hope for. And we did. We had some small changes in the Beeson reserve when we were doing it. There was no way of getting out of your car in a disabled spot and actually getting anywhere. So they put a slope on the footpath, which was awesome. And we also advocated for some more bike parking in between Beeson's reserve and the lifesaving club. So I know I ride down to the beach all the time, so somewhere to park your, park your bike when you want to go on the beach. So sometimes it's just like little small winds can make a big difference in just the way you interact with it. Or other people might interact with a.
[00:49:31 - 00:49:33] Ilana: Space, a water bubbler as well, perhaps.
[00:49:33 - 00:49:34] Kirralee: Yeah.
[00:49:35 - 00:49:48] Ilana: Well, I was walking down the ether strip today and I looked over that large canopy covering the whole wide foot path and thought, well, if we lost a couple of car parks, we could have some trees, some proper big tall trees.
[00:49:49 - 00:49:50] Michael: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:49:50 - 00:50:05] Ilana: And how much comfort that would give from the street as well. And then my mind ran to, well, what if we took the 60km an hour down in car speed a little bit and it would be quieter. How much nicer would your beer at Woe Gurk's be?
[00:50:05 - 00:50:14] Michael: Yeah, there has been a bit of discussion around that because obviously in Chelsea they've lowered the, the speed limit to 40. It's Monday to Saturday during the June daylight hours.
[00:50:14 - 00:50:24] Kirralee: Roughly how that makes you feel sitting on the side of the road, having a coffee or a beer or just. Just being. It's a, it's a different feeling to being in a 60 zone, isn't it?
[00:50:24 - 00:50:25] Michael: Absolutely.
[00:50:25 - 00:50:33] Ilana: Even 10 decibels quieter, which isn't much. 10 decibels quieter, feels like 50% quieter.
[00:50:33 - 00:50:33] Kirralee: Yeah.
[00:50:33 - 00:50:41] Ilana: So dropping that car speed even just to 40, which most people are pretty used to in suburban areas and school streets would go a long way.
[00:50:42 - 00:50:43] Michael: Absolutely.
[00:50:43 - 00:50:50] Kirralee: But yeah, that's, that's one thing we've chatted about, but definitely leaving that with the people who have the knowledge on these things.
[00:50:50 - 00:51:24] Ilana: On the traffic engineering component, we've definitely had conversations, this show about active transport and more walkable streets. And I think all these ideas and how they interconnect over the last 11 weeks have been really important and to have all these threads that intersect and keep building because now listeners, especially regular listeners, will have a better understanding of what place making is. And that the work you've done with the signs, with the, with the mural, the activities in the park, that's excellent example of place making and evidencing that back to council.
[00:51:26 - 00:51:45] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. And we saw glimpses of that in 2017 when we had that, that, that work done by the collective at that time. And I think it was, I think what connected with people is like how much you could achieve with quite few resources, you know, secondhand things and people just pitching in with a bit of paint and elbow grease.
[00:51:45 - 00:51:48] Kirralee: So, yeah, showing what we want it to be and how we want it to feel.
[00:51:48 - 00:51:58] Ilana: And yeah, I really look forward to this project taking off and being realized and then I'm sure there'll be an excellent opening party.
[00:51:58 - 00:52:00] Kirralee: There will be a big party.
[00:52:00 - 00:52:03] Michael: It will be. We'll keep you posted on progress.
[00:52:04 - 00:52:07] Ilana: You would have absolutely deserved it as well.
[00:52:07 - 00:52:10] Kirralee: Some dancing down the street with Ash maybe.
[00:52:10 - 00:52:23] Ilana: Yeah. Well, mindful that we should start wrapping up, but I want to ask if there's one number one thing on your wish list for Edith Fell, what would it be.
[00:52:26 - 00:52:55] Kirralee: To have those shops filled, those empty vacant shops? Yeah, it's going to make such a difference. If it'll feel vibrant, it'll feel loved and cared for and like a place people want to go to. So I think often it's the chicken or the egg. When we were starting, like empty shops doesn't convey money wanting to be spent on it. And now we've got the money going to be spent on it, hopefully. And we've had amazing people come in. Hopefully that'll just keep on snowballing.
[00:52:55 - 00:53:38] Michael: Yeah, I sometimes think about, you know, an old fashioned barber shop or something. You know, some of. Some really, not just shops but some really cool, you know, a traditional butcher or, you know, some of those we've got. The ice cream shop was a real turning point and it was amazing to see the strip just explode because it opens at the height of summer and they were just like a license to print money. It seemed like at that time there were people out the door and, you know, kids riding down on their bikes and putting their bikes, leaning against the bin and going in for an ice cream and it was just a delight to see. So, yeah, I'm Definitely with Kiralee, that seeing those places fill up, as we're starting to see now, will be. Will be fantastic.
[00:53:39 - 00:54:32] Kirralee: And I think the collective also, when we started it wasn't just about place making, it was definitely about bringing community together. So I think going forward we've got lots of post, especially post, all this footpath stuff happening about bringing maybe markets together or lots of local crafty creators in their workshops, in their garage or working from home and like networking them together to collaborate or we've got ideas about that and bringing. I think there's. It's wonderful knowing your neighbours and ways that that can happen. That's not associated just around maybe playing sport or mothers groups. I think sometimes it can be quite isolating going and living in a new suburb and maybe you don't work there. How do you meet new people if you're not a sporty person? So we want to try and facilitate anything we can that brings people together.
[00:54:32 - 00:54:36] Ilana: That's a really important point. So what gives you hope?
[00:54:39 - 00:55:56] Michael: Oh, that's a good question. I think what gives me hope, and I touched on it earlier in the conversation, was that people really underestimate what they can achieve. And I think when you see even small groups of people just come together with a common cause and purpose, that you can shift the dial. You're not trying to change the world, you're just trying to change your little corner of the world. But if everyone does that and everyone thinks that, actually I can make a small difference because a lot of people, I suppose, particularly in the social media age, like we're all keen to have a big rant and complain about what's wrong, but not enough people prepare to say, well, look, let's put together a petition or let's organise a meeting with our counsellor, or actually let's sit down and say, what are the three things we want and how do we think we can get them? So I think that that makes me feel really hopeful and going through the process of working with the collective has instilled that hope in me that, you know, actually we can change things. It doesn't happen quickly and nor should it, you know, it should be hard in some respects. So I think that's given me a lot of, a lot of hope for what lies ahead for. For Edie.
[00:55:56 - 00:55:58] Ilana: One bite at a time.
[00:55:58 - 00:56:01] Michael: Exactly. Gotta eat that elephant. One bite at a time.
[00:56:01 - 00:56:02] Ilana: How about you, Kirilly?
[00:56:03 - 00:56:42] Kirralee: Yeah, the power of the people and dreaming big. I think sometimes it's, you know, this is what we'd really like. And what are the steps that we can do to get there. And how can we just ask. Just ask for help in the people that live around us. Yeah. And I think there's great feeling of feeling connected to those people then and welcomed and cared for in that community. And I think. Yeah, if you've got an idea like this in your community, just reach out. Facebook page, we put handwritten notes in people's letterboxes to start off with. And just that real like going back to basics to connect with your neighbors and your community. It's so important.
[00:56:43 - 00:56:45] Ilana: People are amazing. They'll really surprise you, won't they?
[00:56:45 - 00:56:47] Kirralee: Yes, they will.
[00:56:47 - 00:56:50] Ilana: Well, I think that's a great note to end on. Thank you so much for joining me tonight.
[00:56:50 - 00:56:51] Michael: Thanks for having us.
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